Ridiculous gun handling by police

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jsalcedo

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Was just watching the Science Channel show "Bright Ideas"

They were showing the enhanced computer training aids for the hogans alley type mockup hostage situation.

Some Somerville Massachusetts police officers were getting trained and monitored by computer.

These bozos had fingers on the triggers 24/7. One closeup showed one
guy with both hands around his gun, finger on trigger and the weapon
up against the side of his face as he was waiting to pop out behind a corner (T J Hooker style).

Another scene showed these cops running down a hall full tilt with guns in hand, arms extended fingers on triggers all the time with the guns pointed at each others backs. Only the front guy would have had a shot at the bad guy and his partners would have capped their lead man if they had encountered anyone..


I know the show was about enhancing police training by use of computers
but come on! The cops they showed being trained were not rookies,
they were in their 40's and 50's showing the most atrocious unsafe gun handling outside of a B grade action flick.
 
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From that description ... it sounds attrocious ...... rules #1 and #2 being totally abandoned. I sure as hell would not want to be on point with those guys behind me!

You'd think they would follow the rules and some .... :rolleyes:
 
I have come to find out (from a veteran cop) that some police officers are actually gun-haters, and only grudgingly carry them, let alone train with them. This took me by surprise, since I always thought that they were basically gun nuts like us...

On the other hand, maybe the guys you saw were just a bunch of idiots. Remember the photo of Feinstein (one of *my* Senators, thank you very much) sweeping the crowd at a press conference with an evil assault rifle, her finger on the trigger the whole time?

Tim
 
Cops: fingers on triggers, pointed at buddies' back
DiFi: sweeps crowd w/finger on trigger

And civilians "...shouldn't be trusted with firearms.."

:fire: Hahahahahahah! .........I have to laugh to keep from crying.
 
Okay, there is something I've been wanting to say for a long time connected to this idea, which pops up over and over.

I want to first say that there are plenty of Law Enforcement Officers who are fine folks, who support the RKBA, and who are knowledgable about firearms.

However, for every single LEO like that, there are probably 10 who are nothing like that.

For large numbers of LEOs, guns are just part of the job.

And here's what I've been waiting to say.

In many cases (not all cases) asking a cop for gun advice would be like asking a cab driver for car advice.

In many, many cases, the logic of "he's a cop and has a gun so he must know guns" is just like the logic of "he's a cab driver and drives a lot, so he must know cars."

There. I said it.

hillbilly
 
Cops are notorious for their near total lack of range safety and carelessness with firearms. The days of firearms savvy people becoming cops are long over. Most recruits have no firearms experience whatsoever prior to getting the job. Most have never even seen a firearm previously either.
I suspect it's far worse up here than Stateside. Up here it's a high paying civil service job with no military experience or firearm experience required. A university degree is far more important here. Most of our cops can't shoot to save their lives, don't shoot as a hobby or practice as part of their job and know little or nothing about firearms at all. Even the 'SWAT' types are more dangerous to themselves than to the criminals.
 
In many cases (not all cases) asking a cop for gun advice would be like asking a cab driver for car advice.
Click to expand...
Well put.

- Gabe
 
If you knew Somerville, you wouldn't be all that surprised.:rolleyes:

Congrats to jsalcedo for actually spelling Somerville correctly. Most people in Eastern MA get it wrong all the time.
 
My limited experience in the military in the late 1960s indicated to me that most military folks were not especially fond of firearms. I am thinking too that the military does not encourage the private ownership of firearms.
 
hansolo, even more disturbing is that cops and elected representatives are civilians. Antis don't seem to understand that.
 
Marines are too aggressive to be LEOs. The problem is with the agency. A police chief is usually only an administrator. The city manager really runs the show. Degrees look good on paper. Insurance is all that must be satisfied, not the public. When friendly fire results in death/injury/disability most cities simply self-insure. A Marine would not be hired over a bi-lingual, culturally aware degreed idiot who doesn't know WHICH end the bullet comes out of.
 
While we're on the subject of people "assuming" that a particular group of people "know" guns, something I have always considered as borderline false, is that ex-military pilots, who now fly for the commercial airlines, automatically are experts on small arms.

I was in the Navy from 1973 until 1995, and as a Parachute Rigger (PR) I worked very closely with squadron pilots. Weapons training might have consisted of running 50 rounds through a .45 or 9mm maybe once a year, if that.

I don't know if things have changed since I retired, especially after 9/11, but at least in the Navy, small arms qualifications were at best, a joke.
 
To second the military statements: even in the Marines, there tends to be considerable ignorance of any non-issue firearms. Most tend to have a general good-natured enthusiasm for firearms, but are unfamiliar with even basic concepts like the difference between the M14's 7.62x51 and the AKs 7.62x39, or even what "5.56" means. [Edited due to my mental lapse]

It seems to me that enlisted Marines are a pretty standard mix of pro- and anti-gun. A lot of them are Southerners or Hispanic, and tend to vaguely support the "American gun culture". But plenty of them from big cities or liberal areas believe that only the military and police should own "assault weapons".

The most revealing comment I've heard along those lines:

"If I ever have to go door-to-door in America, I don't want some knucklehead shooting at me with an AK-47."

The vast majority of the Marine officers I've met are pro-gun. More officers own personal firearms, many had carry permits when they were civillians. I believe this is tied to the fact that most officers could get very good jobs in the civ world, but chose the Marines for ideological reasons. Thus officers are more likely to have a "traditional American" viewpoint, vice the enlisted who join for money and training in addition to ideology.
 
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If you have the nerve, go watch your local police qualify. Unless they have their own range to qualify on, you'll find them at some local gun club. Several local, and not so local, departments use my club's range to qualify on.

I have seen officers loading their guns, finger on the trigger, behind the firing line. Loading their GUNS, not just magazines.

Marksmanship that pushes the envelope of the believable. One female officer put 6 out of 13 rounds into the dirt 6 feet in front of her target. When walking back to her table, she looked at one of us and said, "Not bad, hunh" Somebody else said, "You put 6 rounds in the dirt." She said, "I did?" Did she qualify? No, she didn't have to. In her department, they have to go to the range and shoot the qualifier, but there's no requirement that the officer actually pass it.:rolleyes:

How about a simunitions drill run with the instructors at our club and a local department? One of our guys is playing the bad guy and approaches an officer in a vehicle. Our guy pulls a gun. The officer pulls his, fumbles the draw, nearly drops the gun and shoots the car door twice and his foot once. Our guy didn't have the heart to shoot him.

In another simunitions drill, the cop already has his gun out. The bad guy pulls his. The cop drops his gun and runs away. I am not kidding, and all of this over a simunitions drill. The sight of a real gun would probably give him a heart attack.

Part of it lies with the officers. Heck, it's their butt on the line. Another part lies with the instructors who aren't qualified to do their job. Finally, another lies with the bean counters who don't leave enough money for training or ammunition.

On the up side, I did get to see the SWAT team shoot. They know what they're doing.
 
Two points.

Point 1. It is my understanding that most of the top competitive shooters in all disciplines are not LEO or military.

Point 2. I can't comment on everyone in the Corps, but one night after a meeting my Ssgt mentioned that A) he had went to the recent gun show and loved it B) he owned an SKS & C) he was saving up for an AK. The poolee's response was universally positive.
 
Boy, my face is red. Yes, I am aware that the AK-47 is 7.62x39mm, AK-74 is 5.45x39mm, the 7.62x54R is for the PK (Pulemyot Kalashnikova medium MG), SVD, and 1891-descended Mosin Nagants.

Not so much a comment on "ignorance", per se. I'm not saying that someone is a bad person for not knowing such details, just pointing out that knowledge of those details does not "come with the turf" for those who handle firearms as part of their job.

And even those of us who do know certainly have our off-days to keep us humble. (smile)
 
I had similar experiences to yours, Mikul, with Several female 2nd LT's in the army. Being a range NCO is one of the few places an enlisted man can get away with yelling at an officer, and those butterbars got it, too!:D
The first one forgot to release the slide on her M1911A1, stood there trying to bend the trigger, she was pulling so hard. After the shooting ceased, I pointed out the slide release to her, and allowed her to fire her alabi. (or was it labia?):neener: At the 7meter target, her first hit 3 feet in front of the target, her next five were in the dirt about halfway to the target, and the last drilled a nice clean hole in the tin roof over the firingline, as she brought the gun up to "TJ Hooker ready" She almost dropped it. I yelled, "Set your weapon down and step away from my firing line..........Ma'm!":fire: I then gave her some personalized training until I thought she was ready to do it right. She was a fast learner, qualified right after that incedent. 4 Years of ROTC, and she had never touched a weapon! I had a year of it, and in that year, when I was 17, I fired an M16A1, M60, M1911A1, M72, a live LAW, not just a simulator. So I'm sure the LT had chances to shoot, she just didn't.
The next butterbar pressed the mag release instead of the slide release, dropping the mag on the nice shiny toe of her corfam jump boots, ruining them.:p I actually didn't yell at her, I was too busy laughing:D
One of my buddies had an AD with, of all things, a S&W M10. (He was a Huey crew chief.) I wasn't running that range, but I agreed with the SSG who was; he did not let my friend fire his qualification that day, even after he begged and pleaded. When he got to six months later, he was the safest one there;)
You'd be surprised how many people joined the military for the college money, and don't like or expect to use weapons! :scrutiny: I was fortunate enough to end up working for a Green Beret who was glad to offer some training to myself and several others who were actually wanting to survive and kick a** in combat! I would not have wanted to go to war with my REMF unit:what:
 
In another simunitions drill, the cop already has his gun out. The bad guy pulls his. The cop drops his gun and runs away. I am not kidding, and all of this over a simunitions drill. The sight of a real gun would probably give him a heart attack.
Click to expand...

Ok. I snarfed my drink on that one. Now to get a rag and clean up my keyboard...

Some of these posts need warning labels to put down coffee
or soda before reading:D
 
When I was a shooter in the 87 PacDiv matches at Camp Smith Hawaii, I overheard a Gunny Sgt talk about an officer that kept claiming an alibi because his rifle wouldn't work. Seems his M16A2 kept dropping the bullets out the bottom during slow fire. The Gunny calmly explained that a magazine inserted in the magazine well would fix his little problem. I heard this in the Alibi Club, an all ranks club just outside the 300-yard line exit, just a small bar with a TV and pool table. It was a good thing the TV was on because I damn near fell off my chair laughing.
 
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