Rifle masquerading as a pistol

[dogtown tom]

Question: If an SBR becomes configured as a rifle and sold as such to a dealer or another party, it is still in the NFA registry as an SBR, regardless of its current configuration.

Yes, it remains in the registry forever. ATF asks that you notify them so they can make a notation in the registry that the firearm is no longer in NFA configuration, but it's not required.

Are there any repercussions to the new owner by possessing it since it’s in the NFA registry as an SBR?

No, because he's not possessing an SBR.
If the new owner decides at some point that he want to configure the firearm to an SBR, he may find ATF rejecting his F1 as "already registered". He'll then have to explain that he acquired the rifle as a Title I firearm, ATF will update the registry and the F1 will be approved. He then gets to engrave the receiver or barrel with his maker information.

 

[FlSwampRat]

Question: If an SBR becomes configured as a rifle and sold as such to a dealer or another party, it is still in the NFA registry as an SBR, regardless of its current configuration.

Are there any repercussions to the new owner by possessing it since it’s in the NFA registry as an SBR?

This is another facet of the oddity of a user configurable firearm that needs no tools for reconfiguration. Since it can be rebarreled without so much as a screwdriver of pair of pliers any owner can make it into any iteration that strikes their fancy.

As I was saying about popping a 10" barrel on your AR, removing the stock and calling it a pistol, you no can do.
You can't take a bolt action Remington 700 rifle, saw the butt off and cut down the barrel and call it a pistol legally.
You can't take your 1894 Winchester and make your very own Mare's Leg.

I imagine, although I don't know, you can't unmake an SBR either. Granted, that'd be a lot more difficult with that Remington, this whole discussion with the other manager came about when we saw the AR rifle with the lower stamped "pistol". We began playing the "what it" game.

I know, for example, if you have a Mauser or Luger that is capable of taking a clip on stock "Thou Shalt Not", short of NFAing the whole shebang. Taking something in, as a pawnbroker, that is illegal you risk losing the item and the money you put into it at the very least if they can't prove prior knowledge of its illegality. So we sometimes kick around situations that might be land mines. Funny, but it never occurred to me the situation I brought up in this thread, not to mention the one you bring up here.

Lots of potential pitfalls.

 

[BSA1]

Whom does the burden of proof rest with?

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quakes like a duck then who is responsible for determining it is a duck?

A pistol using a COLT Lower would be a easy Red Flag no-no for me as COLT has never made AR handguns.

However Stag Arms makes and sells AR Stripped Lowers. I have a Stag Arms Stripped Lower so it is a honor system if I follow all of the technical steps to keep it as a pistol.

It really boils down to how bad the BATF wants to put the screws to you. As the BATF has long been a rogue Government Agency it is not hard for me to imagine them conducting inspections of Dealers and charging them with NFA violations if we get a anti-gun President.

 

[Texas10mm]

Ruger and Savage both sell stripped lowers.

 

[dogtown tom]

.

I imagine, although I don't know, you can't unmake an SBR either.

ATF disagrees.
I covered it above and its nothing new: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/rifle-firearm-subject-nfa
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/rifle-firearm-subject-nfa

Granted, that'd be a lot more difficult with that Remington, this whole discussion with the other manager came about when we saw the AR rifle with the lower stamped "pistol". We began playing the "what it" game.

"What if" you read the NFA FAQ's and regs?

I know, for example, if you have a Mauser or Luger that is capable of taking a clip on stock "Thou Shalt Not", short of NFAing the whole shebang.

Thou Shalt Read.......you haven't.
Attaching a shoulder stock to numerous Mauser/Luger/Hi Power pistols is wholly and completely legal and does not require "NFAing" anything. Ever heard of Curios & Relics? There some great stuff you can play with that's C&R and doesn't require a tax stamp.

 

[dogtown tom]

Whom does the burden of proof rest with?

Burden for proving what exactly?

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quakes like a duck then who is responsible for determining it is a duck?

US Fish & Wildlife.

A pistol using a COLT Lower would be a easy Red Flag no-no for me as COLT has never made AR handguns.

Lower your flag, spend three minutes on Google and discover that thousands of Colt lower receivers have been sold over the last four years. Brownells sold quite a few. I have no doubt that many were made into pistols. While Colt never produced a factory AR pistol for commercial sale they've sold thousands of the 6920 OEM model pictured above. Being that it doesn't meet the definition of "rifle" it perfectly legal to thow a forend on it and use as a pistol.

It really boils down to how bad the BATF wants to put the screws to you. As the BATF has long been a rogue Government Agency it is not hard for me to imagine them conducting inspections of Dealers and charging them with NFA violations if we get a anti-gun President.

And what violations are you imagining?
So much paranoia it hurts to laugh.

 

[WestKentucky]

The only thing I know to say on this... and this comes from a couple FFL buddies where I used to live... they will not buy, trade, or otherwise receive to own an AR pistol unless it comes from the factory as such and they can verify that through knowledge of the gun passing through them when purchased. They WILL on the other hand buy a used pistol upper and an AR lower without a buffer tube if it has a pistol buffer on it as it comes in. They slap on a cheap buffer tube, a used collapsible stock, and they quickly have something that they know is legal. They always have a used pistol buffer tube laying around for near nothing, and have been known to screw it onto the reciever for folks for the legal purposes of making it a pistol first so that it can be whatever later on.

Even if it’s been a SBR then it can be a non-NFA item again by unconfiguring it in NFA configuration.

 

[dogtown tom]

The only thing I know to say on this... and this comes from a couple FFL buddies where I used to live... they will not buy, trade, or otherwise receive to own an AR pistol unless it comes from the factory as such and they can verify that through knowledge of the gun passing through them when purchased.

Hopefully, they let their transfer customers know this beforehand.
How often are they shipping back used AR pistols?
Do they do the same with stripped AR lowers? 10/22 receivers? Glock frames?

I'll bet a cookie that your buddies still use yellow 4473's.

They WILL on the other hand buy a used pistol upper and an AR lower without a buffer tube if it has a pistol buffer on it as it comes in. They slap on a cheap buffer tube, a used collapsible stock, and they quickly have something that they know is legal. They always have a used pistol buffer tube laying around for near nothing, and have been known to screw it onto the reciever for folks for the legal purposes of making it a pistol first so that it can be whatever later on.

A "pistol buffer" means nothing. The firearm must have a barrel and shoulder stock attached to meet the definition of "rifle".
Screwing a "pistol buffer" into an AR lower does not make it a pistol, just as a complete AR lower with shoulder stock is not a rifle until completed as such.
This is not a rifle:

Remove the shoulder stock, attach a barreled upper and you have a pistol. No requirement to use a "pistol buffer".

 

[MechAg94]

I bought a Shockwave Blade 2.0 arm brace last weekend and it is designed to fit a mil-spec buffer tube.

 

[Elkins45]

View attachment 895750
Remove the shoulder stock, attach a barreled upper and you have a pistol. No requirement to use a "pistol buffer".

After first making sure it never had a rifle upper attached while configured as it is in your photo, of course. Unless prior to that it had a <16" barreled upper attached but not the shoulder stock I know you know this, but others may not.

A lower losing it's pistol status is analogous to your daughter losing her virginity: once lost it can never be regained...but if you pay a $200 fee she gets to wear a white dress at her wedding...but only in some states.

 

[mavracer]

Lower your flag, spend three minutes on Google and discover that thousands of Colt lower receivers have been sold over the last four years. Brownells sold quite a few. I have no doubt that many were made into pistols. While Colt never produced a factory AR pistol for commercial sale they've sold thousands of the 6920 OEM model pictured above. Being that it doesn't meet the definition of "rifle" it perfectly legal to thow a forend on it and use as a pistol.

I'd say keep the flag, you're gonna need to Google the lower model to see if it was available as a reciever.

 

[mavracer]

Double tap

 

[Texas10mm]

After first making sure it never had a rifle upper attached while configured as it is in your photo, of course. Unless prior to that it had a <16" barreled upper attached but not the shoulder stock I know you know this, but others may not.

A lower losing it's pistol status is analogous to your daughter losing her virginity: once lost it can never be regained...but if you pay a $200 fee she gets to wear a white dress at her wedding...but only in some states.

Not true.

You can go pistol, rifle, pistol with no problem. However going rifle, pistol, rifle is asking for trouble.

 

[Elkins45]

Not true.

You can go pistol, rifle, pistol with no problem. However going rifle, pistol, rifle is asking for trouble.

That’s what I said, or at least what I thought I said.

Whenever I get a new lower I put it together as a pistol and take a photo. The photo establishes a build date and so hopefully gives me some protection in the extremely unlikely possibility someone should ever care.

 

[dogtown tom]

That’s what I said, or at least what I thought I said.

Whenever I get a new lower I put it together as a pistol and take a photo. The photo establishes a build date and so hopefully gives me some protection in the extremely unlikely possibility someone should ever care.

Do you think anyone cares?
I've yet to read of a TC Contender owner worrying about assembling his pistol/rifle combo as a pistol first.

If ATF is researching the history and "what it was first" of your firearms.....you got more problems than a photo can fix.

 

[dogtown tom]

I'd say keep the flag, you're gonna need to Google the lower model to see if it was available as a reciever.

Didn't bother spending the three minutes did ya?

 

[Dibbs]

Can't you just, like, take an engraver, and engrave "wishes it were a" above the word "pistol" ?

Seriously, you run a shop, you can't put a short barrel on it, because it's a "rifle" now. I'd be more worried about it originally having been sold as a pistol, and being called, during the transfer, a
"rifle", now, regardless of what's on the side of the lower. Couldn't that raise a flag ?

IMO, if the lower literally has "PISTOL" printed upon it, wouldn't it more than likely have originally been configured, or at least the receiver sold as, a pistol ?
So original records should show it as a pistol, wherever they are...

 

[Elkins45]

Do you think anyone cares?
I've yet to read of a TC Contender owner worrying about assembling his pistol/rifle combo as a pistol first.

If ATF is researching the history and "what it was first" of your firearms.....you got more problems than a photo can fix.

Maybe a buyer cares if I later try to sell it configured as a pistol.

It would have helped the OP.

 

[mavracer]

Didn't bother spending the three minutes did ya?

I hope you don't have this attitude with an ATF examiner when he looks at a Colt that's marked AR15A2 and has a serial # that starts with the letters GS that you logged in as a pistol because you're smarter than everybody else. Because he might just recognize that that was a limited run that was only available as a rifle.

 

[Buzznrose]

This thread is exactly why the NFA needs to be repealed, at least the SBR and suppressor portions! Too many law abiding gun owners have to deal with this confounding horse crap

 

[dogtown tom]

I hope you don't have this attitude with an ATF examiner when he looks at a Colt that's marked AR15A2 and has a serial # that starts with the letters GS that you logged in as a pistol because you're smarter than everybody else. Because he might just recognize that that was a limited run that was only available as a rifle.

I sure as heck WOULD HAVE this attitude and ATF tells me in writing why I will have this attitude......A DEALER IS REQUIRED TO RECORD THE TYPE OF FIREARM RECEIVED. Period.

If I receive an AR lower receiver it gets recorded as a receiver. If I record "rifle" and didn't actually receive a rifle as defined by Federal law I commit a violation of Federal law. Same with a Glock factory frame, it gets recorded as "frame" even though the only way it left Glock, Inc was as a pistol.
There is no requirement that a dealer research the history and provenance of any firearm he receives.
Good grief.

 

[dogtown tom]

IMO, if the lower literally has "PISTOL" printed upon it, wouldn't it more than likely have originally been configured, or at least the receiver sold as, a pistol ?
So original records should show it as a pistol, wherever they are...

1. Again, as noted ad nauseum on this and many other gun forums......."Pistol" markings on an AR lower are meaningless.
2. Receivers are transferred on the Form 4473 as Other firearm (receiver).
3. Whatever the "original records" show isn't as important as what type of firearm it actually is.

 

[BSA1]

[QUOTE="dogtown tom, post: 11409914, member:24565”]


Lower your flag, spend three minutes on Google and discover that thousands of Colt lower receivers have been sold over the last four years. Brownells sold quite a few. I have no doubt that many were made into pistols. While Colt never produced a factory AR pistol for commercial sale they've sold thousands of the 6920 OEM model pictured above. Being that it doesn't meet the definition of "rifle" it perfectly legal to thow a forend on it and use as a pistol.




And what violations are you imagining?
So much paranoia it hurts to laugh.[/QUOTE]

Well it took longer than three minutes but I did find a website advertising stripped Colt CSR15 Lower Receivers although they are out of stock naturally. I also found a discussion of Colt stripped lowers from 2011 so they must have been out there at one time.

In so much as you are a learned practicing attorney I unfortunately have first hand experiences with Government Agencies enforcing policies they know are illegal. I need not to remind you of a dustup in Waco in 1993.

 

[mavracer]

I sure as heck WOULD HAVE this attitude and ATF tells me in writing why I will have this attitude......A DEALER IS REQUIRED TO RECORD THE TYPE OF FIREARM RECEIVED. Period.

YOU CAN'T MAKE A PISTOL FROM A RIFLE!!!!!
SO RECORDING IT AS A PISTOL IS A VIOLATION.

But you do you I'm out.

 

[dogtown tom]

YOU CAN'T MAKE A PISTOL FROM A RIFLE!!!!!
SO RECORDING IT AS A PISTOL IS A VIOLATION.

But you do you I'm out.

1. I didn't say you could make a pistol from a rifle. (Edited to add: you CAN make a pistol from a rifle if the firearm was originally a pistol)
2. Recording an AR lower as a "receiver" isn't a violation, it's the law.
3. You were never in.