Rifle on the high seas

[Seaworthy]

Hello all from a new member of the forum.

Having done lots of research online, gotten bogged down by <deleted> and contradictory information, I seek the wisdom of forum members.

If you want the short version of my topic: what is a quality bolt action rifle, with expandable magazine capacity, that can better withstand a maritime environment? If you want to know the context, read on

The wife and I have decided to take a long sailing trip. Sometime in the next two years we will cross the Atlantic, but for now just the East Coast, Carribean, and Panama. Fish, travel, live cheap, see the world. I have a background for it.

Poor seamanship is a far more likely way to meet a sad fate than piracy, but at least seamanship is entirely within my control. Many cruising sailors are, bless their hearts, either anti-gun or don't want the significant hassle of having guns on board when visiting foreign lands. These people are represented in sad stories of victims who lacked the will and means to defend themselves against the wicked.

At the other extreme, you have American cruising sailors who pack an arsenal: full auto assault rifles, a range of handguns, .50 BMG rifles, and try to keep this secret when visiting foreign lands. These people are represented in sad stories of those who have had their boats (and guns) confiscated by foreign governments, spending many years in prisons that make ours look nice.

Most foreign governments aren't completely unreasonable though. They understand that a break or pump action shotgun can be used to fire ropes long distances, and to fire flares. They even, sometimes, can get their minds around private citizens owning rifles that can put meat on the table. They often frown on handguns, or anything semi-automatic though. Plus, it better be in a locked safe, or else the foreign police will store them for the duration of your visit. You might even get them back afterwards. Unfortunately, at anchor is one of the more likely places to need ones weapons, so my boat has a safe.

While piracy is relatively rare, I don't want to be a statistic. I'm ex-Army, I have no doubt I will use deadly force in defense of me and mine. I can leave my nice weapons in storage here in the States, settle for a pump action shotgun, a bolt-action rifle, and the freedom of the seas.

There are several good options for maritime shotguns. They can't be too short, or foldable, or very high capacity. Still, I'm okay with the choices. Add a tac light, green laser, good to go.

Bolt-action rifles are a tougher pick. They can't be too military, but yet I want a higher capacity (probably after-market) magazine plus the ability to add my ACOG, green laser, IR laser, bipod... and stay within a budget. Large enough caliber to hole a small boat below the waterline, but nothing so unusual ammo can't be purchased overseas. Something like .308 or .30-06. Handling a maritime environment without obsessive maintenance would be nice too.

So, any ideas for my rifle?

Thanks in advance,

Seaworthy

 

[taliv]

welcome to THR

this topic does come up from time to time. you can search for lots of threads in the past, but here's an example. www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=165145
read mike's post #8 in that thread for more material.

btw, this is a family friendly site

 

[Driftertank]

Green laser? IR laser? Forgive if I come across as in any way patronizing, but it seems to me that such accessories would add very little utility to bolt action rifle, and come across as a little "terroristy" in many forign ports-of-call.

I would suggest a bolt-action in .308 (7.62×51), synthetic stocked stainless, and perhaps then cera-koted or otherwise treated with an inert, salt-resistant coating. And a plain and unassuming scope in the 3-9 range. Hunting rifles probably wouldn't raise too many eyebrows in any country where sport-hunting is legal for non-residents. I know Howas have kits available with "high capacity" magazines. And several aftermarket suppliers offer high-cap DBM kits for Remington 700 SA.

 

[oneounceload]

Many other locales do not allow civilians to own weapons firing military cartridges, so the 308 might become an issue in some ports.

 

[zorro45]

You might also consider that there are some "export certificate" requirements on some of the high tech goodies such as laser rangefinders, etc., wouldn't want to get jammed up in a foreign port. Also if you need a customs declaration to come back into the U.S. make sure you have all the accessories listed by serial number or they will try to charge you for "importing" them. This assumes that you aren't in jail already on gun charges. If I were going to do this, no matter how corrosion resistant my guns were, I would vacuum seal them in a big long bag and leave plenty of room at the end to open and reseal as needed,
a travel iron could be used as a field-expedient sealing device. As you know on board a vessel salt and humidity will find their way into anything and nothing is truly 100% corrosion-proof.

 

[Driftertank]

So the trick would be a commonly available round that's never been chambered in a military rifle?

.270? ? .30-30?

 

[Deaf Smith]

Get what weapon(s) you can legally in the U.S. and export. Get the necessary paperwork to export. Get a waterproof container to fit it that is good to say, 500 ft below along with float, anchor, and gaffing hook.

OUTSIDE the legal boundaries of any country you wish to go to, find a shallow portion (say 50 to 100 ft deep, navigation charts will help at this) and with a rope&float, anchor, and a very accurate GPS, drop the weapon(s). On the way out of port, go to the location and pick up your weapons.

Do this every time till you get back to the good old USA, then legally IMPORT them back in. I'm pretty sure that should be legal to do.

Note: Test out your system well BEFORE you leave least you end up with no weapons(s) due to flaws in your system.

Deaf

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Sounds like you are looking for a Ruger Gunsight.
http://www.ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/models.html

It uses the M1A Magazines. I know they have 20 rounders but there may be a 30 round option.

I don't know if you are going to find an maritime specific models but if kept oiled properly and stowed in something like a Pelican case, you should be fine.

 

[Seaworthy]

Thanks for the link, Taliv. I searched, really. "Pirate" was the missing term. Family friendly, roger that. Noonsite is indeed the best place to go for the "armed or unarmed" side of the discussion. Having chosen a side, I think this is a better venue for discussion of particular weapons.

Green laser is a decent deterrent. Presented with the certainty of a fight with uncertain outcome, most muggers will look elsewhere. I have tried it from the deck of a moving boat, I consider green laser superior to a standard scope or iron sights. The ACOG is better than a high magnification or iron sights though, love that reflex action. The IR laser is just since I have nightvision gear, and the laser, and robbers love the nighttime. On further thought, maybe the green laser is better here too; it is not my job or intent to reduce the pirate population, just protect me and mine. Just because any of these are mounted in a confrontation, doesn't mean they are when the weapon is presented to authorities. I've looked (drooled) over the Rem 700, it fits the bill but would like to shave a few hundred dollars off the price tag. Thanks though.

Yes, the military cartridge question is a problem. .30-06 was in service a long time too. From what I can gather, .308 is acceptable as a civilian hunting round, it being one of the most popular in the world. Just don't have the stuff marked 7.62x51. .270 and .30-30 are good thoughts though.

Thanks Corporal, that is indeed along the lines I'm looking for

 

[Jim Watson]

.303 No 1 or No 4.
Simple, rugged, 10 rounds, not expensive if you get a pre-Bubbafied mutt.

 

[jmr40]

Sounds like a Ruger Scout rifle to me.

I don't know about legalities. I read a post years ago about someone doing something similar. They went with inexpensive SKS rifles and pump action shotguns. They planned the trip carefully so they would be legal for most of the trip and only visited spots where it would be illegal towards the end of the trip. They threw the weapons and ammo overboard shortly before arriving where they weren't allowed.

They couldn't be armed for the last legs of the trip, but were for most of the trip.

 

[Dave P]

It is way too expensive for what you get, but the ruger gunsight carbine might work. Seems to be weather resistant.

Shotgun is always a good idea.

M-14 magazines in a GSR? I don't think so ...

 

[Jenrick]

If the Rem 700 is up your alley, then look at a Howa 1500. Usually a couple hundred cheaper, and just as good if not better of a rifle.

I second the SMLE though. .303 british will handle business, the gun itself is one of the best fighting bolt actions ever developed, and it's just "an old bolt gun" to most people. Also you can fix a NASTY looking bayonet to it.

Lastly don't discount a well setup pump shotgun. Running good full power slugs, you've got a gun that can engage to rifle distances, and hit with more authority.

-Jenrick

 

[Bama Drifter]

Stainless .308 w/ synthetic stock...

seems to be the general answer. More specifically, I'd use what I used to bag kudu, springbok, and wildebeest in Namibia: a Tikka T3 stainless w/ 2-7X32 Leopold scope. Seriously gets the job done, and I believe 10rd mags are an option however slightly pricey.

see here:
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...8+Winchester+wStainless+Barrel+&+Black+Synthe

and more reviews here:
http://reviews.cabelas.com/8815/217...-steel-bolt-action-rifles-reviews/reviews.htm

Best scope on earth under $200 here:
http://www.opticsplanet.com/leupold...th-matte-black-finish-and-duplex-reticle.html

 

[Curator]

Look into having your vessel "documented" as a US vessel rather than registered from your State. A USS ship has always been treated as a US territory and you not subject to search by foreign customs official unless you leave the boat. Check with the Department of State to learn how you can get the same protection as US military vessels.

 

[The Alaskan]

Do you really need a rifle?

Are you going to shoot at targets further away than the length of your boat?

Can you even hit a target, from a boat bobbing in the water, using a scope?

I had a friend who was in the Coast Guard and did a lot of boardings over his career. He carried a hand gun and open choke shotgun, and much preferred the shotgun.

Might just consider a Mossberg Mariner type shotgun and carry some rifled slugs for longer shots/more penetration. Could probably buy 2-3 for the price of a stainless steel bolt gun and be able to arm your crew.

Standby to repel boarders!

 

[Tinpig]

This might be what you're looking for:

Mossberg 500 Mariner and Remington 870 Marine Magnum

http://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_mossberg_remington_marine_shotguns.htm




Regardless of whether you decide to carry a gun on board, every well-equipped boat should have a good supply of
12 ga. Orion flares and several flare guns, if you know what I mean.



Tinpig

 

[roscoe]

Some folks anchor their firearms in a waterproof bag, below the surface in not too deep water, marked by GPS, to pick up again when heading out to open water.

 

[geologist]

Lee Enfield No. 4 or No.5.

10 shot magazine, detachable and feedable with clips. Fastest cycling bolt action rifle action (cocks on closing), proven combat record and cheap.

 

[Pushrod]

How about a lever action rifle or are those frowned upon by foreign government agents also?

 

[BSA1]

Ahoy! Landlubber here.

What are the tactics and weapons pirates use when attacking pleasure boats?

First I would expect them to use much faster, more maneuverable boats with powerful engines.

Second how many boats do they use in a typical attack? Do they attack alone or as teams of two or more boats?

Third is how many people are on the boats?

Fourth, of course, is how well are the armed and with what type of guns?

If you intend to engage them at longer range what are you aiming for? Some 30 caliber bullets in the hull don't seem very effective. If the boat has outboard motors then shooting the motor to disable it might be a effective tactic.

However if you open fire at a longer range then that will alert them that you are armed and fighting back so will they open fire on you from a distance while circling around you at higher speed? See question #4.

It may be a better tactic is to lay in wait with short barrel shotguns to repeal boarders. Let them think you are easy pickings. Just a thought but how about arming yourself with shotguns with 12" - 14" barrels? NFA will not apply on open international waters. When you go into a foreign port dump the short barrel overboard and put on a nice long barrel for bird hunting.

 

[Sam1911]

I've read quite a few narratives of round-the-world sailing adventures. Some have included at least a little description of contact with other mariners of very ill intent. In one case, a solo sailor was scoped out for a long time by a crew of nasties off the coast of Africa who eventually motored away without boarding. And only afterward did the guy realize that the long shiny boarding hook he'd been holding looked like a large gun from that distance, and he concluded that it was his inadvertent "show of force" that convinced them not to raid his vessel.

I've read some discussions of holding weapons in hiding and ambushing the attackers at closer range, but none of that being done in actual practice.

To be honest, only one or two of the stories I've read actually involved carrying any weapons at all. I think most private yachts-folk protect themselves through networking via radio with others, keeping an ear out for what's going on, where, and avoiding known trouble spots.

Having a weapon on your vessel when entering a large, very large, number of foreign ports is a serious problem. Being able to ditch and retrieve it in international waters is a pretty slick solution, though the chances of making it through an extended cruise, having been able to recover it consistently every time, might be pretty small.

And it isn't like international waters are where the majority of raiding dangers are going to happen anyway...

 

[JSH1]

Ahoy! Landlubber here.
What are the tactics and weapons pirates use when attacking pleasure boats?

Most of the incidents I have read about in the Caribbean involve robbers in small, silent boats sneaking aboard at night while the boat is anchored and crew is asleep.

 

[gamestalker]

I wouldn't even consider sailing into a foreign port where firearms are illegal, and especially being an American citizen. They'll seize your boat, your firearms, and very likely put you into one of their prisons where justice isn't even a known or spoken word.

I would definitely consider the whole GPS hide them under the surface idea. The only thing here, is it's usually a rather long and risky unarmed sail from the edge of international waters to the ports. This is one of the reasons I've never sailed the open sea's. I've had a couple opportunities to do so with friends, but as soon as I learned that I couldn't legally bring a self defense weapon, I decided to pass. Heck, I don't even travel to other states that restrict my right to defend myself.

GS

 

[The Alaskan]

I wouldn't even consider sailing into a foreign port where firearms are illegal, and especially being an American citizen. They'll seize your boat, your firearms, and very likely put you into one of their prisons where justice isn't even a known or spoken word.

LOL. I wasn't going to say anything, but I'm glad someone did. I'll never understand some Americans' desire to visit third world poop-holes.

My girlfriend wants to go to Jakarta. what for? A coworker went to I think it was Thailand or Laos. Are you kidding me? What could be so great about a country where they kill Americans for fun, they eat dogs as a delicacy, and you can't drink the water.

Yeah, I think I'll stay on my local lake with my Laser sailing dinghy where all I have to worry about is the short swim back to the dock.