Rifle to become a better marksman

[michael_aos]

So use a 5 round magazine, or download the mags, or use a single-shot mag insert thingee. That's a discipline thing, not a rifle thing.

Yeah, you're right. I've just noticed that a "day at the range" with an AR-15 or my IPSC Limited .40 S&W consumes far more ammo than a day with a double-action revolver (.44 Special) or bolt-action Remington 700P in 260 Remington. Even with the HS Precision 10rd detachable box magazine.

Admittedly, it's a different "kind" of shooting though too.

Mike

 

[farscott]

IF you really want to learn to shoot a rifle well.....pick a nice, realitively heavy and accurate .22, and start buying ammo it likes by the 5000 round case. Get some small targets.....start with paper targets so you can learn from you misses....and spend more time on the range.

Those are the words I live by. After lots of handgun work with a reliable and accurate .22 LR autoloading pistol, I wanted to do the same thing with a rifle. I ended up buying a CMP Kimber 82G (single-shot, bolt-action target rifle) owned by a fellow High Road member. I have been humbled trying to shoot the rifle in all kinds of weather at distances of up to 200 yards. The experience has forced me to learn how to better read wind, to better judge distance, and to better control my own body. My 200-yard groups are still nothing to mention, but my shooting at shorter distances is greatly improved. My centerfire shooting, while limited, also is showing progress.

 

[michael_aos]

I bought a couple thousand round-nose CCI Mini-Mags when Sportsmans Warehouse was having a sale.

I didn't realize until I got home, there were ~1400 of the hollow-point CCI Mini-Mags mixed in with them. No returns on ammo.

My Marvel 1911-.22 conversion doesn't like the HP's at all, but I'll give them a try in my Ruger K10/22T.

 

[michael_aos]

I have been humbled trying to shoot the rifle in all kinds of weather at distances of up to 200 yards. The experience has forced me to learn how to better read wind, to better judge distance, and to better control my own body. My 200-yard groups are still nothing to mention, but my shooting at shorter distances is greatly improved. My centerfire shooting, while limited, also is showing progress.

It's just never occurred to me to shoot a .22LR out to 200yds.

Mike

 

[Pardini Fan]

Becoming a better marksman

I am a terrible shot. I have improved but I haven't become good enough for my liking.

I have a bunch of toys also. I found a few things that helped me.

1) Art of the Rifle by Jeff Cooper

2) Get a pellet rifle. I found one at Walmart for $75. It has a terrible trigger. When I do shoot a rifle with a good trigger, I am even better. I try to shoot 10 shots at a time-5 or 6 times a week.

3) Get a 10/22. Take it to the range and shoot for groups at 50 feet. I use
the handgun targets.

4) The Ching sling has helped me with offhand shooting.

I have improved and I can hit a deer. I won't win any matches but that was not my intent. A moose is calling my name next season.

 

[Zak Smith]

Mike,

You already have the rifles you need to develop better marksmanship skills. A good start would be to shoot Eddie's standards until you can ace them every time, then work on speed. You can do it with your AR and M193, nothing fancy.

 

[michael_aos]

Mike,

You already have the rifles you need to develop better marksmanship skills. A good start would be to shoot Eddie's standards until you can ace them every time, then work on speed. You can do it with your AR and M193, nothing fancy.

Busted!

I was hoping you wouldn't see this post.



You're right though, it's Eddie's standards that got me thinking about this whole thing. And it's those same standards that have me thinking "if I just had a different rifle"...

I'm always looking for an equipment-based solution.

Mike

 

[michael_aos]

Not saying I'm going to buy one. Just happened to notice my local dealer has a Remington 700 LSS in .243 for $729.

Mike

 

[Zak Smith]

It probably does not have the twist you want.

Even if it did, it'd be basically just like shooting your 260.

 

[michael_aos]

My AR-10 was supposed to fill this role. With a 22" Lilja barrel, chambered in 260 Remington.

Right now it's wearing a Leupold 6.5-20x40mm target scope with the Leupold Dot reticle.

It's HEAVY though. And a little long. And as much as I like the caliber, 260 Remington isn't exactly a "plinking" round.

It's one heck of a shooter though. Prone & sitting / supported.

Mike

 

[michael_aos]

It probably does not have the twist you want.

Even if it did, it'd be basically just like shooting your 260.

Twist is a concern. It's 1:9.125", which I think gets me up to 100gr.

Recoil should be about 25% less than the .260, at the same weight.

But I'd like to see it weigh 4-5lbs less than my 260 bolt-gun.

Mike

 

[Zak Smith]

243 isn't a plinking round either, considering it is the same amount of work to reload as 260 or 308.

For marksmanship practice to 400 (Pueblo), there's no point in using something exotic. A 223 with heavy bullets or a 308 shooting AUS/SA surplus would be fine.

You're right though, it's Eddie's standards that got me thinking about this whole thing. And it's those same standards that have me thinking "if I just had a different rifle"...

I'm always looking for an equipment-based solution.

How would different equipment help? Was the weak-hand pistol stage at TV3G hard because we were shooting the wrong pistols?

Those standards can be shot with a 16# sniper rifle, or a 7# AR-15 A2. For what it's worth, I'll be shooting his matches with my AI 308 with the JET on, which has got to be over 16# and equivalent length to a 31" barrel.

 

[michael_aos]

For what it's worth, I'll be shooting his matches with my AI 308 with the JET on, which has got to be over 16# and equivalent length to a 31" barrel.

I was curious about that. The 5-shots, offhand, at a 4" x 4" target is going to suck.

Mike

 

[michael_aos]

How would different equipment help? Was the weak-hand pistol stage at TV3G hard because we were shooting the wrong pistols?

No, but....

I think it's helpful to practice with a .22 conversion on a 1911, and / or even a 9mm @ ~130PF, even if I actually compete with a hi-cap .40 S&W & VVN320 w/Montana Gold bullets at major PF.

I've heard that shooting is very much a mental game. It so happened that was my first stage, on the first day, and I crumbled under the pressure.

I liken it to shooting pool and choking on the 8-ball.

In a possibly-related note, I've noticed a correlation between confidence and making the shot. If I'm CONFIDENT I can make the shot, then I typically can. If I'm not so sure, or I start 2nd guessing, I tend to blow it. I assume there's a direct relationship to just shooting more often, under more varied circumstances.

Unless I'm planning to shoot 400yds+, I'm typically not inclined to lug my AR-10 or 700P to the range or camping.

I keep thinking maybe a short, lightweight, "handy" .243 would actually make it to the range more. And thus be shot more. Especially in the 200yd-300yd range.

It's all mental.

Mike

 

[michael_aos]

..there's no point in using something exotic. A 223 with heavy bullets...

So if we assume, for a moment, you guys have convinced me to abandon my ideal super-duper ultimate .243 dream...

What scope would you suggest to stick on this 20" AR?

Mike

 

[michael_aos]

Interestingly, as I was driving home from work, I was thinking...

If I were shooting the Sporting Rifle Match in Raton -- I'd want my 260.

If I were shooting your Practical Rifle Team Challenge -- I'd want my 260.

So I'm not quite sure how to explain this compulsion of mine for something smaller, shorter and lighter and generally handier for "everything else".

Mike

 

[wanderinwalker]

Well, desire to buy a new gun is a very, very powerful force. Once started, it can be difficult to cure, so I've noticed. (I currently want a Thompson/Center Encore in .30-06, blued with camo stock.)

I'd say if you have a light, 20" AR-15, you've got a rifle that can be set-up for what you want. But if you have to have a new gun, go for it. Just be warned; hardware will not solve the software problem.

 

[Zak Smith]

I was curious about that. The 5-shots, offhand, at a 4" x 4" target is going to suck.

It'll be stable. I'm pretty sure there are Service Rifles that weigh over 20#. In any case, I'm not doing it because that's the optimal setup for that match, I'm using it because it's my standard long-range rifle, and 400 yards is within its effective range.

I think it's helpful to practice with a .22 conversion on a 1911, and / or even a 9mm @ ~130PF, even if I actually compete with a hi-cap .40 S&W & VVN320 w/Montana Gold bullets at major PF.

So why wouldn't you ALWAYS train with the Limited 40 and Major PF ammo? Cost? 10k rounds of reloaded 40SW should only be around $800.

Unless I'm planning to shoot 400yds+, I'm typically not inclined to lug my AR-10 or 700P to the range or camping.

I keep thinking maybe a short, lightweight, "handy" .243 would actually make it to the range more. And thus be shot more. Especially in the 200yd-300yd range.

Why not? Both of those rifles are (should be) capable of shooting 1/2 MOA targets out to 400 yards. It is unlikely that you (or I) can hit a 2" square at 400 yards even half the time.

For a 20" AR, you could use a 3-9 M/RT if you need that much precision. Otherwise the ACOG is a standard answer to the general purpose optic question.

The solution to your "problem" is to load another 1000 rounds of 260 and go shoot it, or shoot your AR15. You already have the tools.

 

[michael_aos]

10k rounds of reloaded 40SW should only be around $800.

I figure more like $1280, but the point is still valid.

Mike

 

[michael_aos]

The solution to your "problem" is to load another 1000 rounds of 260 and go shoot it, or shoot your AR15. You already have the tools.

I typically keep 400-500rds loaded for my 260, plus another 400-500rds for the AR-10. I've easily got 1000rds of "misc" 260 loads that didn't quite work out that I need to go through and pull or something.

I've got LOTS of M193, Wolf, and a lot of .223 handloads.

Fine.

Buzzkill. Spoilsport. Killjoy.



Mike

 

[michael_aos]

For a 20" AR, you could use a 3-9 M/RT if you need that much precision. Otherwise the ACOG is a standard answer to the general purpose optic question.

I'm thinking those 4" x 4" squares are going to look pretty small at 200yds, even at 9x. I've been practicing with clay pigeons that are around 4" diameter and a Leupold 3-9x40mm PR scope.

Mike

 

[lycanthrope]

How about an AR upper in .243 WSSM?

 

[michael_aos]

How about an AR upper in .243 WSSM?

That kind of goes back to Zak's assertion that there's no need to get exotic.

Mike

 

[michael_aos]

OK, I pulled the TA11 ACOG off my Armalite M15A4 and stuck that Leupold 3-9x40mm PR scope on it.

Weighs in at 9.63lbs empty.

Mike

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Training is great.
New equipment is fun.
Practice is a given.

There's nothing in the world that will improve your marksmanship like competition.

Get that AR out there and shoot some Highpower events.

Save some $$ off the fancy training and go to the shooting clinics and rifle games at Camp Perry in August.

THEN go to Gunsite to learn how to turn good marksmanship into accurate practical shooting.