RMR's own line of Thick Plated bullets

[LiveLife]

What I would like to know is what the actual length of the bullet

Here are the measurements:

380 100 gr RN: .459" - .460"

9mm 115 gr RN: .548" - .551"
9mm 124 gr RN: .581" - .582"

40S&W 180 gr RNFP: .580" - .582"

45ACP 230 gr RN: .639" - .642"

 

[vaalpens]

Here are the measurements:

380 100 gr RN: .459" - .460"

9mm 115 gr RN: .548" - .551"
9mm 124 gr RN: .581" - .582"

40S&W 180 gr RNFP: .580" - .582"

45ACP 230 gr RN: .639" - .642"

bds, thanks again like always for providing the requested information. I will be adding the information to my collection and hopefully it will help me to make calculated decision when deciding what to purchase and with the load data. Interesting to see that the RMR 124 grain was about .006" shorter than what I am loading at the moment. Very good data to have.

 

[1SOW]

Bullet lengths are important. Roughly, the same weight bullets at the same "Seating Depth" will perform safely, if not close to the same.
Knowing the bullet lengths, gives you the seating depth for any OAL..

 

[LiveLife]

Dare I ask for 300blk ... Something in the 220-230

I'm currently in negotiations with a company to make a 220 grain bullet specifically for rmr bullets. It will be several months before something is available for sale

Good to hear. I have A1680 and H4198 on hand to test the 220 gr plated bullet. Since the loads will max out at around 1050 fps, I think the 1500 fps rating on your thicker plating should work?

 

[longdayjake]

Since the loads will max out at around 1050 fps, I think the 1500 fps rating on your thicker plating should work?

Well, the plating should work fine. However, I want to make sure the bullet can handle at least 2000 fps in case someone wants to try using them for another caliber that can shoot them faster. I think we are going to try to over design them so that we don't run into any issues down the road.

 

[Potatohead]

Over designing is nice. If it doesn't cost to much.

 

[LiveLife]

Got to do some initial range testing with 40S&W and 9mm bullets.

BTW, RMR TP 45ACP 230 gr RN produced sub 2" shot groups at 25 yards from Sig 1911 (I was doing well on the second shot group but darn flyer!) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9630316#post9630316

40S&W: RMR calls these 40S&W 180 gr "thickly plated" bullets RNFP. Like the 45ACP 230 gr RN bullets, the bases are "dished" and thicker plating is rated to 1500 fps (I am planning on getting a Just Right carbine in 9mm and definitely planning on 40S&W/45ACP conversion kits with these bullets).


Determining max/working OAL/COL:

Due to the nose profile/ogive of the bullet, Glock magazine max length of 1.165" dropped in the Lone Wolf and Glock 40S&W chambers freely with a "plonk" and spun without hitting the start of rifling. Taper crimp used was .421". However, 1.165" dummy rounds got stuck in the magazine tube when I loaded 3 rounds. While 1.160" dummy rounds fed and chambered from the magazine even in tight chambered Lone Wolf barrels, 1.155" was decided as the final working OAL to compensate for variations in resized mixed range brass lengths.

You may be asking, but SAAMI max length is 1.135"?

While that's true, many factory and aftermarket barrels will support longer than SAAMI max and if you want to minimize high pressure gas leakage around the bullet and increase accuracy, you will need to use longest working OAL/COL that will reliably work with your pistol/barrel. In the 40S&W Herco thread, I ended up using 1.142" with 180 gr TCFP bullet to produce accurate load using 6.1 gr Herco - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9363753#post9363753


QC step - Neck tension check:

I check for sufficient neck tension by measuring OAL before and after feeding/chambering the dummy rounds from the magazine and releasing the slide without riding it. After two chamberings, I did not measure any bullet setback so I rechambered five times. Guess what? No bullet setback! With many jacketed/plated bullets, I will experience some bullet setback after several chamberings but not with these bullets. Perhaps harder lead alloy (11-12 BHN) used as bullet core is not being squished to maintain greater neck tension? Out of curiosity, I chambered the 45ACP and 9mm rounds and I also did not measure bullet setback! This is really interesting and a very good thing if you have experienced neck tension/bullet setback issues.


Load Development:

Since I already did my powder work up with 180 gr plated/lead bullets with Herco, I decided to do my initial range test using 6.1 gr Herco load. You can read the details of my powder workup with Herco here - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=743416


Range report:

Glock 22 was used at 15 and 25 yards using a small ice chest to rest my hands.

 

[LiveLife]

I did my initial 9mm testing with W231/HP-38, Titegroup and AutoComp. Will post OAL/COL determination and load development next. Stay tuned.

 

[vaalpens]

bds, Thanks for the great write up, great shooting and sharing your load data information with us.

Determining max/working OAL/COL:

Due to the nose profile/ogive of the bullet, Glock magazine max length of 1.165" dropped in the Lone Wolf and Glock 40S&W chambers freely with a "plonk" and spun without hitting the start of rifling. Taper crimp used was .421". However, 1.165" dummy rounds got stuck in the magazine tube when I loaded 3 rounds. While 1.160" dummy rounds fed and chambered from the magazine even in tight chambered Lone Wolf barrels, 1.155" was decided as the final working OAL to compensate for variations in resized mixed range brass lengths.

QC step - Neck tension check:

I check for sufficient neck tension by measuring OAL before and after feeding/chambering the dummy rounds from the magazine and releasing the slide without riding it. After two chamberings, I did not measure any bullet setback so I rechambered five times. Guess what? No bullet setback! With many jacketed/plated bullets, I will experience some bullet setback after several chamberings but not with these bullets. Perhaps harder lead alloy (11-12 BHN) used as bullet core is not being squished to maintain greater neck tension? Out of curiosity, I chambered the 45ACP and 9mm rounds and I also did not measure bullet setback! This is really interesting and a very good thing if you have experienced neck tension/bullet setback issues.

One of the first things I have learned reading your posts is to find that working OAL for your particular guns(s). It seems that my Sig's can handle a longer than spec OAL, and it will cycle fine without any issue. My question is. If it cycles the dummy rounds, there is no bullet setback, is there a minimum percentage of the bearing surface of the bullet that should be inside the case needed for bullet performance, or is the working OAL set basically by what the gun can handle? I would assume neck tension must have some impact on the bullet performance.

Range report:

Glock 22 was used at 15 and 25 yards using a small ice chest to rest my hands.

Great shooting as always. I always wondered how you get these groupings since the it looks like a white blank target. What do you aim at at 25 yards? Do you aim at the previous bullet hole? You must have some great eyesight.

I did my initial 9mm testing with W231/HP-38, Titegroup and AutoComp. Will post OAL/COL determination and load development next. Stay tuned.

Looking forward to the 9mm range report.

 

[LiveLife]

My question is. If it cycles the dummy rounds, there is no bullet setback, is there a minimum percentage of the bearing surface of the bullet that should be inside the case needed for bullet performance ... I would assume neck tension must have some impact on the bullet performance.

40S&W 180 gr TCFP or RNFP bullets have substantial bullet base that gets seated inside the case neck to provide better neck tension than 165/155 gr bullets, so even when using longer than SAAMI max length, I think consistent chamber pressures are being generated from sufficient enough neck tension as demonstrated by no bullet setback even after multiple chambering from the magazine (using harder 11-12 lead alloy for bullet core may be contributing to greater neck tension also).

Many match shooters switched from FMJ to JHP with the notion that shorter nose/hollow space in the bullet nose created longer bullet base for deeper seated bullet base (for more consistent initial chamber pressure build up) and longer bearing surface to engage the rifling for greater rotational stability and less wobble in flight.

Is this just theory or factual? The fact that many bullseye match shooters use JHP bullets over FMJ would support this notion.

When I saw that Missouri Bullet Company chose to go with "non-step" 9mm 115/124 gr RN to shorten the nose and increase the bullet base length, I smiled as Brad must have been thinking the same to increase the bullet base. Now, we see that Jake from Rocky Mountain Reloading did the same to the 45ACP 230 gr RN with shorter nose and longer bullet base ... smart thinking. If you are looking for accurate 230 gr RN bullet, you should definitely consider trying out RMR's 230 gr RN with longer bullet base.

As to 9mm, you'll see my struggle with longer OAL for less gas leakage vs more neck tension from shorter OAL in my 9mm load development and range test (maybe by next weekend as I haven't had a chance to take pictures of various targets from W231/HP-38, AutoComp and Titegroup). In my opinion, shorter 115 gr RN loaded to longer 1.160" may not produce enough neck tension to generate consistent enough chamber pressures unless you are using high enough powder charges. I think for this reason, many claim that 124 gr RN with longer bullet base are more accurate than 115 gr RN. Due to this, I usually load 115/124 gr RN to 1.135" unless I am using high enough powder charges.

Great shooting as always. I always wondered how you get these groupings since the it looks like a white blank target. What do you aim at at 25 yards? Do you aim at the previous bullet hole? You must have some great eyesight.

Well, I used to have better eye sight but in recent years, I had to resort to the aid of progressive lenses and slowly accepting the inevitable life's fate. For 10-15 yard testing, I do use the first hole as my reference mark. For 25 yard testing, I carry a bingo dauber in the range bag and place a dot where I want on the target (cheaper than round stickers and one dauber will last you a life-time). I try to focus on the front sight while using the dot as reference (recently, I find myself using bigger dots than before ) as POI will deviate from POA depending on the bullet weight/powder charge and I do not have adjustable sights on my Glocks as I prefer to keep them absolutely "bone stock" without even a trigger job so I can verify out-of-the box factory accuracy. As Walkalong and many others will admit, the shot groups in the pictures are the "best/smallest" of the shot groups shot. Some days I get tight shot group with the first 5 rounds but some other days, I need to shoot 6-7+ rounds to compensate for flyers (remember, I DO intentionally use mixed range brass). And yes, as range staff can verify, they are actual shot groups shot by me at specified distances.

It is for this reason why I am building a hard pistol rest like Ransom rest for retirement so I can test loads without being more frustrated by progression of life (I should just buy a Ransom rest but I like to tinker and need to justify the cost of Mig/Tig welders to my wife - and somehow I need to slip in a plasma cutter).

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I would suggest thick plated in 44 Magnum.

I'd be happy with thick plated .357mag bullets in 158gr SWC.

I guess I don't understand why I would need a 9mm bullet to be thick plated so it can run 1500fps when the 9mm can barely get past 1100fps but I can't buy a single thick plated bullet in any caliber that exceeds 1200fps.

What's the point?

 

[LiveLife]

I guess I don't understand why I would need a 9mm bullet to be thick plated so it can run 1500fps

What's the point?

9mm Major loads and 9mm carbine.

9mm Major loads will push 124 gr bullets to 1450+ fps out of pistol barrels. Wait until open division match shooters find out about RMR's bullets. Jake, you have enough bullets on hand? You probably say, "Shoot 'em all you want, we'll make more!"

9mm carbine loads will shoot at 1200+ fps.

I am planning to get Just Right carbine in 9mm with 40S&W/45ACP conversion kits so 1500 fps rated plated bullets will be a strong consideration.

 

[Walkalong]

I know bds likes HS-6 (IIRC that is), and a max load and a 115 Gr bullet will easily clear 1300 FPS from a 16" barrel. So will many other max 9MM loads with medium to medium slow powders.

 

[longdayjake]

I guess I don't understand why I would need a 9mm bullet to be thick plated so it can run 1500fps when the 9mm can barely get past 1100fps but I can't buy a single thick plated bullet in any caliber that exceeds 1200fps.

What's the point?

Trust me, when you do this for long enough, you find guys that do all kinds of weird stuff. That said, most guys shooting up to around 1500 fps are using carbines. We also have some guys using them in their .357 magnums and going past 1500. (I can't recommend anything past 1500 for cya reasons). They are sized to .356 so they actually work pretty well in a .357 carbine at high enough velocities to fully obturate the bullet.

 

[Artofgolf]

Trust me, when you do this for long enough, you find guys that do all kinds of weird stuff. That said, most guys shooting up to around 1500 fps are using carbines.

You are correct, sir! Put in my first RMR order today (invoice 32344). bds convinced me that I should give them a test-drive thru my carbine, so I'm looking' forward to some rounds downrange soon

 

[Dudedog]

I would love to see a plated 9mm 125gr SWC.

 

[LiveLife]

I know bds likes HS-6 (IIRC that is)

Well, I like HS-6, WSF, AutoComp, Universal ... now Herco for 40S&W ... maybe BE-86 after this weekend

And of course, I like my W231/HP-38 and faster burning powders.

And I may even like CFE Pistol/Solo 1000/American Select after I try them.

Walkalong, so much for powder reduction. I am a total failure on powder reduction!

 

[longdayjake]

I would love to see a plated 9mm 125gr SWC.

We are currently working on getting a flat nose but the SWC will be a ways off.

 

[gahunter12]

Longdayjake do you sell sample packs? I would really like to try your 124gr 9mm. I have been using Xtreme for a while now, and have been happy with them, but they keep going up on price. Between 5 IDPA matches, practice, and a USPSA match from time to time I go through 1500-1800 rnds each month. Thanks!

 

[tspinillo]

I've been using the .40 rnfp thick plated over the past month in my STI Edge for practice and USPSA matches. Their performance has been outstanding! I'm loading at 1.190 oal with 5.1 of WST to make major.

 

[Toprudder]

I'd be happy with thick plated .357mag bullets in 158gr SWC.

I guess I don't understand why I would need a 9mm bullet to be thick plated so it can run 1500fps when the 9mm can barely get past 1100fps but I can't buy a single thick plated bullet in any caliber that exceeds 1200fps.

What's the point?

When you put it in a 357 sig. Same caliber. 1500fps out of a pistol.

 

[9mmepiphany]

We are currently working on getting a flat nose but the SWC will be a ways off.

When you get the Flat Nose on-line, I'll be ordering a couple thousand to start.

Thank you for contributing to this thread and thank you bds for starting it and sharing your experiments

 

[LiveLife]

I've been using the .40 rnfp thick plated over the past month in my STI Edge for practice and USPSA matches. Their performance has been outstanding! I'm loading at 1.190 oal with 5.1 of WST to make major.

Looks like word is getting out regarding the accuracy potential of RMR's new bullets.

Longdayjake do you sell sample packs? I would really like to try your 124gr 9mm. I have been using Xtreme for a while now, and have been happy with them, but they keep going up on price. Between 5 IDPA matches, practice, and a USPSA match from time to time I go through 1500-1800 rnds each month.

PM me and I will send you some to try.

 

[longdayjake]

Longdayjake do you sell sample packs?

No, what we do is a 100% guaranteed satisfaction deal. If you buy 1000 and try out 30-40 of them and decide you don't like them at all, we will pay to have the rest shipped back to us and give a full refund. We just don't enjoy charging a lot more for something than it should cost only because shipping is so much money. We would rather pay the flat rate shipping on 500 or 1000 and give away 30-40 bullets and then have them returned than pay about the same amount just to ship 30-40 bullets and have to charge an arm and a leg for it.

 

[gahunter12]

No, what we do is a 100% guaranteed satisfaction deal. If you buy 1000 and try out 30-40 of them and decide you don't like them at all, we will pay to have the rest shipped back to us and give a full refund. We just don't enjoy charging a lot more for something than it should cost only because shipping is so much money. We would rather pay the flat rate shipping on 500 or 1000 and give away 30-40 bullets and then have them returned than pay about the same amount just to ship 30-40 bullets and have to charge an arm and a leg for it.

Thanks for the quick response. BDS has hooked me up with a few! I'm sure I will be happy with them. From the pics they look like a fine product.