Role of Night Vision in SHTF

[dave3006]

Just humor me. Let's say there is a serious societal breakdown, Rodney King style. For some reason, power is out and people are rioting and looting. What is your role for night vision?

I have tried to use my Gen III PVS7Bs in a CQB scenario force on force with airsoft guns in a house. It is very difficult. The tunnel vision is extreme and an opponent with a Surefire can turn off your goggles easy. My opinion, so far, is that in CQB you might be better using white light.

The valuable role I could see night vision playing is that of observation of the outside world. You could see the bad guys approaching your house before they see you. Your position would be secure and you would have an element of surprize. No scanning the area with white light. Asuming they are truely bad guys, your ambush would be more successful.

Any thoughts?

P.S. I know a Shtf is remote. Just having some fun. This is better than another I hate the Mini-14 thread or a AR vs. AK rant...

 

[target4fun]

Sounds about right...being that Ive never used the night vision i cant comment on it much, but it seems that outdoors would be the only usefull area unless compete darkness in a very big area ofcourse this wouldnt be considered CQB though..

 

[InfernoMDM]

My two trains of thought.

Special Forces use it with lots of training and complete accuracy. My best friend shoots and qualifies with it for nuclear security. Although he was also infantry.

The infantry currently use a lot of flashlights. Many forign SF units dont use Night Vision as much. Smoke and other things completely negate its uses in confined spaces. Which is very likely to happen.

Maybe takeing those ideas and doing some reaserch may help. Then again using a light can get you shot if you dont know what your doing right?

 

[strambo]

Mainly observation and early warning of attack, though useful in CQB perhaps because SHTF type enemies probably won't have flashlights and use them in a tactical manner. I always preferred the PVS 14 monocular to avoid the tunnel vision problems. It is also more versitile as it can be weapon mounted. If only Uncle Sam had let me keep mine!

As long as priorities are kept...good night vision (gen 2-gen3+) is $2K-$4K...lots of SHTF gear would take priority over spending all that $$$ on one item. Dave already has his so no worries.

 

[Jeff White]

Passive night vision devices can be problematic to use in urban areas with a lot of ambiant light (street lights, traffic, headlights etc.). For observing things you will probably be better served with good optics then with most of the night vision devices available to civilians.

The military has put millions into developing flares and tracers that are only visible in the IR spectrum. I don't know how often they are used, but they exist. Most people worried about securing their homes or places of business in the next big urban riot aren't going to have access to the kind of equipment it takes to support operations only illuminated in the IR spectrum. Even with all of that, white light is still used a lot, especially indoors.

If you're wearing NODs like the PVS-5, 7, or 14 you'll need a laser to aim your weapon, because you won't be able to use the sights. You'll need to add another skill set to your training plan in order to stay proficient with your NODs and laser. Weapon mounted sights like the old and readily available AN/PVS-2 and AN/PVS-4 are big, heavy and unwieldy. More suitable for use on an observation post then on a weapon you're going to move with.

IMHO you're adding a lot of training, logistics and maintenance requirements for a small gain in operational capability. Think about how many DL123 batteries, how much ammunition and training, food and water you can buy for the cost of good NODs, laser sights and the maintenance and other support they require.

Fun toys and if you want one and can afford them, no reason you shouldn't have them. But I wouldn't recommend neglecting other preparations that you're more likely to use so that you can own the night.

Jeff

 

[NMshooter]

The biggest problem with night vision devices that I have seen is the tendency of folks to rely on them excessively. To the point that they forget there were ways of operating in the dark before NV. Neat stuff when it works and you have batteries, though.

 

[dave3006]

Great input. For a civilian, I think night vision goggles and a shotgun would be a good combination if you have to use them with a weapon. Because you can't get a cheekweld with goggles, you will be pointshooting. However, I think I would still prefer to use them as an observation tool.

We had a blackout about a year ago one in my urban neighborhood. It was cloudy and therefore no moon. It was very dark. The first thing I did was grab my NVGs. I have steiner nighthunter 7x50 binoculars. You can see quite a bit with these. However, the NVGs were orders of magnitude better.

I definately agree you would not want to forget you have other nightfighting tools that you could use. And, I also agree that the money could have a better bang for the buck on other things. They were an expensive toy that could be extremely useful for a very specific role (observation and ambush) assuming a SHTF ever happens.

 

[Jeff White]

Dave,
Have you tried your PVS-7s in the normal lighting conditions of your neighborhood? I always found that when you have to deal with the dark areas in the shadows from streetlights etc. that good 7x50 binoculars did better then the NODs.

I always preferred AN/PVS-4s for OP duty. The 4x magnification really helps in that mission and the M16 carry handle mount will screw right into a standard camera tripod.

Jeff

 

[MrMurphy]

Over in the sandbox, just about every guy has a PVS-14 (the monocle on the helmet, can also mount on the rifle).

From what I've heard from guys coming back, the PVS is used for moving up to the objective (say, a house raid or something) but once there, they switch to Surefires, because at close range, walking around with PVS's is rather disorienting (having used a PVS-7 in a forest, I can attest to this), it's hard to judge distance in them sometimes, and a muzzle flash, smoke or frag will shut them down.

The blinding effect of the Surefire on the targets is also a good thing.



For a night ambush using the PEQ laser the night vision would be handy and maneuvering around the streets, etc, yeah, but for close range, a Surefire is much more effective.

Without a laser aiming device in the IR range for use with the NVG, they are pretty much limited to "you don't know I'm here" observing and reporting.

 

[dave3006]

Thanks, Jeff,. I have compared the two several times. For me, I think the NVGs do a better job than the binoculars looking into dark areas. However, I agree that the binoculars are incredible once your nightvision sets in. Even after letting your eyes adapt for 3-4 minutes, I was surprized what good binoculars let you see.

Mr. Murphy, what you say makes alot of sense. One trick I found to make the goggles give me less tunnel vision is to wear them on the mount a bit forward. The goggles kind of act like a pair of bifocals that you can chose to look through when you need them. Still, I would rather have the Surefire light in a dynamic situation over the goggles.

 

[dave3006]

(double post)

 

[Rotty]

spotting.
we have used NV in 24 hour scenario paintball games with great effect, and also been at a serious disadvantage when we had none.
best used for spotting or use in outdoor environments.
not sure i would use it indoors.

 

[c22m22c]

hey folks...

i'm the current nuclear security...ex-infantry guy inferno mentioned.

i started off with the PVS7's...i didn't like them too much for the same reasons stated.

then i got the PVS 14's. WOW.

you CAN, with proper training learn to see in the dark with the 7's. it will not happen in one night. in fact, as a cherry i learned all about battle drills on moonless nights with nods on. you might as well have blindfolded me. but you learn the more you do it.

the use of white lights was also taught. and as long as you're "blinking" or "strobing" the light at various angles, and in different rhythms...you're fine. we were taught to never keep it on for more than 2 steps. and most of us only had them on for one step. purpose was so that the BG's couldn't track us by white light usage. this was REALLY important when my unit entered An Najaf, and then later into Baghdad.

there are many MANY tips and tricks to using your own flashlight in conjunction with your nightvision. you learned a nifty trick by putting them further from your head. that helps a lot. also if you have the rubber eye cups...TAKE them off. in high heat/high humidity environments...the rubber pieces helps the ocular lenses fog up quickly. if you can try to angle them upward slightly. this allows you better access for looking at the ground. nightvision is terrible for depth perception, and if you haven't figured it out by now...you need that.

so play with them. you can only improve.

 

[7677]

c22m22c,

nightvision is terrible for depth perception, and if you haven't figured it out by now...you need that.

I'm glad you pointed that out because I was going to. When I was playing in the sand box in 1991, we built a screened in crapper and the crapper building was approximately 500 meters from my tent. However, with NODs on you could not see it. You checked your compass and set out in the direction and approximately 450 meters later the crapper building suddenly appeared. This a building that held four crappers and wasn't small. We also had the same problem with driving too. The next problem was when searching for the enemy if they kept perfectly still you didn't pick them up with the NODs but those that were not wearing NOD's picked them up right away. NODs are great to have but sometimes the problems they created are worse then the problems then they solved.