The role of night vision devices for SHTF

[dave3006]

Some people ridicule even the concept of a SHTF scenario. This thread is not for you.

Lets say the power grid is down and their is civil unrest due to any number of reasons. My belief is that the majority of problems will occur at night. Groups of individuals or lone opportunists will could target homes for robbery, rape, or other unpleasantries.

This is where a good gen III night vision device will come in handy. It will be necessary to set up shifts where individuals are looking for bad guys approaching your house. A good goggle will allow you to identify them before they are in your yard or at your back door. You do not want to be scanning your perimeter with your Surefire light as a general rule. This would be literally screeming "shoot me, I'm over here". You want to see the bad guys before they are on top of you and spring an ambush.

The night vision device gives you the opportunity to see them in advance in an unknown manner to do this. Since you will probably be outnumbered, the element of surprize will be your biggest advantage. Consider NVGs as a force multiplier.

When you think of how many rifles you have that you don't really need, $2500 for a good set of night vision is not that expensive. It could be the advantage that saves your life.

 

[Jeff White]

Dave,
I'd recommend the AN/PVS-4 for your scenario. The 4x magnification makes it much more useful as an observation device then goggles or a monocular would be. The threads in the integral M16 mount on the PVS-4 will accept the screw in most camera tripods.

Don't discount good standard optics for night use. You may find good 7x50 binoculars better then passive night vision if you're going to be operating in an urban area with a lot of background lights, i.e. streetlights. You'll find the binoculars will let you look into the shadows that you can't see into with the NODs.

Jeff

 

[JShirley]

I live, breathe, and contemplate SHTF scenarios 24/7/366, which must mean I need a life.

The best thought years of planning, training, and experience has given me, is to avoid trouble if possible.

SHTF= bad things happen. Bad things happen everyday, to someone. If you're in such a bad way, it would seem better advised to leave the area since you're in a high crime region with no water.

Night vision may be better than no night vision (if you have the PAQ/PEQ's to utilize it), but it still sucks mightily. Even with no night vision, one should be able to see a mob of people approaching at some distance. If you have a stealthy individual or individuals, you will probably NOT see them from inside your apartment until they are at your door.

What type of "perimeter" are you talking about? If I happened to be a goblin, possessed of goblin motivations and spite, I would be certain to shoot the fruitcake in the corner yard wearing the cammies, with that weird getup on his head, and looking around like he was possessed, first thing, just because. And then I'd go looking for a puppy to kick.

 

[4v50 Gary]

And if you can see them, then what? OK, you see a crowd approaching. How do you determine their hostile? Can you determine positively that they're headed your way or just passing through? Do you issue a verbal challenge and then a warning?

You know those neighborhood block parties? Attend them. Get to know your neighbor. Get to know their capability (elderly, retired, mobility issues)? In short, a neighborhood that is supportive of its members is the first line of defense. Why? You know who belongs and who doesn't. You have partners (trench buddies in a sense).

Consider creating a buffer space (blockade with old junker cars to cut off the street, cul-de-sac or neighborhood especially if the gates aren't working) and a "no-cross" zone. Visible deterence helps too (just like the Korean grocers did during the LA King Riots).

NV is good, but a plan of action is essential.

 

[Edward429451]

If you was staying put, I think their use would be limited. Extra binoc's for this scenario is a good idea. But if it wasn't safe to stay and you bugged out, they'd be more useful as you'd be moving at night. Give em to the point man and move slow. Security all has red dots and binoc's.

I need more binoc's. I can't even think about NV, I can't even afford a 300 dollar scope right now.

Will Plumb for NV?

 

[sanchezero]

How do you determine their hostile? Can you determine positively that they're headed your way or just passing through?

Of course, thats presupposing you can see them, which is what Dave is asking about.

 

[dave3006]

You will not want to be standing around outside. Too easy to be a target. A second story window with a good view is all you need. It would be easy to identify two or three guys approaching your house with bad intentions. They will be the ones with rifles. The next clue will be the front door being kicked in or hearing the plate glass window in the kitchen shattering.

Having night vision in this circumstance simply lets you identify the bad guys early and prevents you from being surprized. It buys you time.

(I have Steiner Night Hunter 7x50 binoculars. The Gen III goggles are infinitely better. The binoculars are good though.)

 

[JShirley]

Uh...if you're inside, what make you think that they'll come from the direction you're looking? Even if you find a corner window, that would give you a max field of view of about 135'. What about the other directions?

Why would they be carrying rifles? In the situation you describe, carrying sidearms would be more likely, and those would probably be out of view.

You may want to reconsider your basic posits.

 

[V-fib]

I have a GEN I mono that I picked up on sale for $89. It uses a reg 9v battery and is Russian made. It allows me to easily see out to 300 ft. I use it when I go hunting ( after dark when I’m leaving my blind I scan for deer so I don’t spook them) I’ve also used it to watch deer in my food plots after dark. It also has a IR light which works great when there is no starlight. I’ve had friends walk randomly around my yard and up my drive in the darkness and can pick them out easily with the GEN I unit. However I found that the IR only works through open windows (if the window is closed the IR light bounces back...Low E Glass?) Anyway I bought a GEN II unit a couple of years ago for about $1800. It obviously worked somewhat better than the GEN I but after getting it I decided that the $1800 could be used for other things and returned it. When GEN II and III gets more reasonable (under $500) I might get a better unit. Until then the GEN I fits my needs very well.

 

[Joe Demko]

If you've got the money laying around, NV is a nifty gadget. Pretty far from indispensable. Also, sometime try staying up all night long looking through the thing. I do mean all night, too. What makes you think the barbarians are going to come stampeding in on their yaks just at the time and from the direction that is convenient for you?

 

[dave3006]

Okay. Based on the responses so far, I must conclude:

1. It would be best to not bother trying to look for bad guys because they will ALWAYS come in the direction I am not looking (they are superhuman clever).

2. The ability to see in the dark is completely useless and actually a bad thing. To even want to see in the dark, when your enemy can't, is stupid.

3. If the three complete strangers that are stalking and approaching my house at 1:30am at a time of civil unrest do not have rifles visible, they must be my friends. I should throw down my gun and run out to meet them. Because I have nightvision I am not allowed to verbally challenge them if I am unsure of their motives.

4. Binoculars in this role are good. Nightvision, which does a much better job, is bad because it is military. Therefore, I must be a wanna be militia member or something.

5. If I park my car in the street they can't get to my house.

6. Since, my neighbors will see my bad guys coming and call me, I can just go to sleep.

7. The minute the unrest starts, I should run away and leave my house (this one is my favorite).

8. The bad guys will always travel in mobs of 100 and you will see them at 3 miles away with carrot enhanced natural vision.

9. Goblin motivations and spite will make them more effective than me. All I have is training.

I am learning so much here. Thanks guys.

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

Dave, I have a few pieces of gen2 and one gen3 gear and I have used it in the military (along with FLIR). I think in the situations you mentioned it certainly does add to your options. Most of your drones will not think of the possibility of you having NVDs unless you make it known. As to the idea that you can't scan more than a 135degree sector, that is true if you don't bother to get off your butt and step into the next room and check another window. The best coverage would require several people on rotating shifts but that is beyond the scope of this post.

Jeff, I wouldn't choose the PVS-4 as a first choice, it is a sorta big piece. I have one for sale if you are interested (not a bad bit of gear but not my first choice). Might be OK for a stationary observer though...

I would probably go with goggles first (PVS-7) or monocular (PVS-14), the 7s are much cheaper than the 14s so that would be easier to accept price wise.

 

[sanchezero]

I am learning so much here. Thanks guys.

LMAO.

The PVS-14 is pretty freakin cool. I like the monocular since you can still use your other eye to help keep from trippin over everything.

If you can afford it, get NV. It's a HUGE advantage in the dark (look at any recent military conflict we've been in). As has been mentioned (the other NOD thread maybe), the gen I stuff is pretty lame. Better than nothing maybe but could actually handicap you in some circumstances.

 

[JShirley]

Dave,

You have actually been given some very good advice.

Unfortunately, it seems you have created a scenario that is very specific, and then attempted to use it as justification for something.

Were you asking which NODs would work for you, or telling us WHY they would work? Your original post has a basic premise (power grid down and civil unrest) that is possible enough. You then go on and make six assumptions:
1) Problems will happen at night
2) Groups of people will be up to no good
3) Night vision will be useful
4) Guard shifts will be necessary
5) Sweeps with white light are bad
6) Surprise is your biggest advantage

Now-looking at this scientifically- if we accept all of these assumptions as true- your post seems to be looking for "yes, NODs are good" responses. Now, looking at this list, only *1* assumption seems to be definitely true (#4- in times of civil unrest, watchfulness is A Very Good Thing).

Now, if you want very specific info, such as "which NVG may work well for me in X price bracket", we can certainly deliver. (I am partial to PVS-14's, followed by PVS-7D's.) You, however, did not ask this. You also seem to have avoided asking us what we would do in this situation. Then, you are chagrined by some responses. In the future, if you are looking for "yes, this is good" responses, you *might* ask for them. OTOH, if you want advice, you may wish to ask for that. In this case, you have done neither, but have still managed to get some thoughtful- and potentially helpful- responses. Considering, I think you've done well.

 

[Joe Demko]

Maybe I can give you what you were looking for:

Night vision equipment? Damn it, man, you are a genius! Why didn't anybody think of that before? Think of it! We could see in the dark and they couldn't!

Better now?

The fact remains that people got along without NV devices for quite a while. I hear they even fought whole wars without them. Though they have become cheaper, they still are pricey. If you already have good weapons, good conventional optics, adequate supplies of ammunition, adequate supplies of food, first aid equipment, etc. etc. etc. etc., then I don't see anything wrong with spending some disposable income on NV. I just don't think it is a necessity. If I had the price of a really good set of NV gear laying around, I believe I might spend it on going to one of them high falutin gun skuls instead. Skills are more useful in the long run than gadgets.

 

[gun-fucious]

i have gone up against teams with NV playing scenario paintball

i am now trying to figure out how to defend against NV

If they have IR illuminators you could build an IR detection device that alerts you when it is painted.

Gen 3 is tricky to find, but motion detectors that turn on remote IR sources might make them think there are Gen 1 NV users in a section of the field and channel them into a trap.

another nifty deal is the IR filter for a million CP QBeam:
http://www.pvs7.com/infrared.htm
http://elitetacticalsources.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=EXIRFilter

You could have IR spotlights on Motion detectors that illuminate an area for you

if the insurgants have NV they are gonna know they have been detected

Sony makes digital video cameras with "nightshot"
It uses the IR auto focus sytem as an IR spotlight
and biases the camera to see in the IR spectrum

A tilt and pan video camera that sees in IR at night might be a useful house defense system

 

[Richardson]

Dave,

I concur that some NVD's would be extremely helpful in a SHTF situation. But I wouldn't spend the big bucks on Gen III technology. A good Gen II product should be sufficient for everything you describe, and cost a lot less.

In my opinion, those who dismiss NVD's as gadgets (NOTE: guns are just "gadgets"), or don't see their utility just have not realistically considered the future. Realistic SHTF scenario's put us in the role of "citizen soldier", and our military's NVD capabilities allow them to "Rule the Night".

I wouldn't break out the NVD's and set up rotating shifts unless there were reports or indications that suggested that maurading gangs were in the area, or home invasions were becoming common. Perhaps the best use of them is to identify if "someone" is wielding a weapon. A gang of 10 passing through without brandishing weapons will get a different reaction (from me) than a group of 2-3 who are sneaking around the dark areas of people's yards with rifles, pistols, or other destructive devices.

Being able to say something like "I'm aiming at the man with the rifle -- now make some tracks", when it's too dark to see (with unaided eyes), could be quite useful...

Richardson

 

[Joe Demko]

You're right. Guns are just gadgets. They are also only part of an integrated defense and survival program. Possessing a National Match M-1A doesn't make you a sniper. Possession of NV gear will not turn you into the "citizen soldier" who "rules the night." Let me remind you of a war that this country was involved in a few decades back. Hard lessons were learned there, including the overwhelmingly important one that gadgets are not a substitute for skill.
Buy what you want. Use it as you see fit. It's your money and your life.

 

[Warner]

Of course NVD'S are beneficial. I usually find that the naysayers either haven't thought the possibilities through completely, don't have the cash, or just need more of that so valued school time to expand their world in correct directions. NVD'S wouldn't be placed before some other vital equipment for me, but way before so many other items that some deem important.

Technology has made U.S. #1 in the world. Anyone interested can now own a piece of that......and apply it as needed.

 

[JShirley]

Technology has made U.S. #1 in the world.

Negative. An environment that encouraged individual enterprise and rewarded individual achievement has done this.

Beneficial- for what? Certainly, they are beneficial for some things. Especially if you happen to have a weapons-mounted infrared laser in a low/no light environment with definite inbound hostiles.

 

[Warner]

An environment that encouraged individual enterprise and rewarded individual achievement has done this, and the technology resulting from all those fancy words has allowed us to do what needs to be done to remain #1.

Beneficial in that it supplements one of man's basic weaknesses.....the inability to see in the dark.

As for any hostility towards the thought of ever dealing with a low/no light environment with definite inbound hostiles..... this is a SHTF thread.

Thanks

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

JShirley, I am not sure why you are jumping on Dave he simply made an observation as a conversation starter as I see it. Is it necessary to only ask or answer questions or is posting observations allowed too.

As a side note I will say that of the six points you listed I will accept most of them as good general statments. In fact the only two that I might take issue with are #4 and 5. Fact is that even now in more civil times the bulk of criminal activity seems to take place after dark. Groups of otherwise un-affiliated people join together to cause mayhem, already organized groups (gangs) step up their activity (opportinistic bastards that they are). When it is dark night vision has some utility and having suprise on your side is never a bad thing. Your point #4, guard shifts being necessary, may not be true. It is situation dependant and the number of people on hand may not allow it. I can't agree with #5 either, I can see where white light can be a very good thing. For people who have yet to prove ill will to you, letting them know you are aware of their presence may save you some serious problems. It also lets you keep the night vision a secret (remember that suprise we talked about).

Just my take on things.

 

[Cruiser]

NV is a tool. Like most tools, it is extremely handy under the right circumstances, but is not necessarily the correct tool for everything you want to do. I have a fair bit of experience with NV, and find that its' usefulness is pretty limited.

It gives you little advantage if the opposing force also has NV and can see you as well as you can see them. If they are as well prepared as you, they will also have a $15 1 million candlepower spotlight and shine it at your position, taking away your ability to use your expensive tool.

With NV costing as little as $89, it's easier for BG's to outfit themselves with it. You can take away their NV by a few strategically placed floodlights on your perimeter. This creates a "wall" of light so you will be able to see the intruders and what they are doing, they will not be able to see you, and they will know they are exposed and vulnerable.

You can still have your NV device for when the situation evolves to where it provides you with a tactical advantage, and everyone will be happy.

 

[JShirley]

Well, Jake, I replied to an observation with observations. If Dave was attempting to generate comment, it would seem he has succeeded, huh? The only thing I am totally in agreement with is the obvious truth that situational awareness must be maintained in every circumstance, regardless of guard shifts.

 

[Jeff White]

Jake,
I interpreted Dave's scenario to be a static defense hence my recommendation of the AN/PVS-4 or even the older TVS-5 that was designed for employment on the M2 .50 BMG.

My personal take on this is that NV is rather low on my priority list. It's expensive and relatively fragile. For the cost of good Gen III stuff you can buy a lot of training, food, ammunition etc. YMMV.

Jeff