The role of night vision devices for SHTF

[Jake 98c/11b]

Jeff, I would agree with most of what you said. My only possible point of contention is the durability of the Mil-Spec units. Certainly pricy and generally a luxury item though. If you want it as a part of your gear should we have a bad decade then it certainly is down the list a ways. Training first, then the basic gear, then more training, then (and only then) the high dollar limited use gear.

From a price standpoint the PVS-4 is good for what you mentioned, I'll give you that.

 

[dave3006]

I have been to at least a dozen classes at the shooting schools. I have enough guns and bullets to arm my neighborhood and some of the adjacent communities. I have food, medicine, and other supplies. The NVG may not be essential, but for me, makes sense. I consider it a force multiplier.

We had a blackout about 6 months ago at 9:30pm. Of course, no streetlights or anything else. It was a 1/4 moon and semi cloudy. I could see about 50 yards clearly. I took out my 7x50 nighthunter binoculars and my gen III goggles. I had a complete view of my neighborhood with the goggles. The binoculars did good. But, no comparison.

I can't imagine how this type of vision in a SHTF scenario could not be of tremendous value. You have the ability to survey your neighborhood without making your presence known. I think people are making this too complex.

Sight is good.

 

[Jeff White]

Jake,
I have always found that the 4x magnification in the PVS-4 waas preferable to the 1x in PVS-5s and 7s for observation from a static position. The probelm is that the PVS-4 isn't as versatile for other uses as the goggles.

I don't want to put anyone off who thinks they absolutely have to have night vision in their bag of tricks, but even the Mil-Spec units while they are more durable for parts breakage etc. the image intensifier tubes still have a finite life to them. They aren't something you can just take down to Radio Shack and buy parts for. If you are looking at a long term SHTF scenario, you may wear them out. If you use them a lot playing with them and training, you may eat up a lot of the usable tube life and not have much left when the SHTF for real. Then you'd have to learn to live without them.

I think KISS is best. NODs, while being fun to play with and a great tactical tool, are a little too complicated for the individual to use and maintain over the long term. We sent ours in every 180 days for a semi-annual service. Are you going to be able to do that if the SHTF for real? Just some things to think about....
Jeff

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

Jeff, I am what I have heard refered to as a soft core survivalist. I think we can expect an interruption of the normal routine for short periods of time but I view the collapse of civilation as a remote possibility at best. While I do stock about 120+ days of food and consumables it is for more mundane reasons. If I lose my job I can get by much easier with just my rent and utilities draining the bank account.

Having said that I will say that if there were a collapse of the system that plunges us into another dark age whatever limited life those NVDs have would be a godsend to those that had them and had an understanding of there capabilities and limitations. Moden light intensifier tubes have a life expectancy, in Mil-Spec units, of about 10,000 hours. That is about 3.4 years of use at 8 hours a day, 365 days a year. I figure a realistic figure for use would be about 4 hours each night if you had the manpower to keep watch 24 hours a day, that gives almost 7 years of daily use. I think my PVS-7s have quite a bit of use left in them.

If the world as we know it were to fold tomorrow and your NVDs only had 10% of the projected life left in them that would still provide you 250 days use (at 4 hours/night). Since I would expect the first 6-8 weeks of any collapse to be the worst and most dangerous time, a unit with only 200 hours life left (2% of that 10,000 hours) would see you through the worst of it and would be worth ten times what you paid for it.

I agree that the 4x magnification of the PVS-4 is better for fixed position observation. The 3x lens can be added to the PVS-7 and that bay be the ideal compromise for some people. The utility of the head mounted unit is hard to ignore. I can drive and do manual labor with my goggles, can't do that with the NVWS. The PVS-4 can be had for far less than the 7s or 14s though. I have heard of people making money keeping deer off runways at night but I am sure that is a job that is near impossible to get these days...

All of life is a compromise.

 

[DrDremel]

I don’t know where you live but in most situations, even a full riot, you are not going to have dedicated hordes of people trying to attack your home. Simple firearms, home security (bars on windows, doors, etc.) and some floodlights to light up the area surrounding your home will suffice. The people you describe would simply look for easier prey. You are better served to put the money for NV into alternate power for your house. If you are in the country, the chances of some people dedicated to try to plunder a protected house are slim to none. In the city, a simple neighborhood watch setup during the unrest would be a better solution.

The situation this whole question is based on is pretty much a fantasy. If you are really worried about people invading, set up some tripwire flares or a similar type of warning. It would alert you to the direction of the person(s) coming and would also be a deterrent as they would instantly know that you are a dedicated commando warrior that is specially trained in the art of SHTF scenarios. In August, there was a multi-state blackout here in the Detroit area. Unless you lived in the inner city, nothing really happened. There were no hordes even though there was no way for the people there to get food other than some stores that sold using flashlights. In the suburbs here crime actually went down as the criminal community knew that since the police were busier than usual with helping people, that the residents were more likely to solve any situations themselves.

Buy a gun, store some food and water, protect your home and help your neighbors. NV is good for some things but those that have used it also know it can become a crutch for poor training. Technology only rules in outright war. Vietnam and Afghanistan proved that technology does not trump planning and training. Here are two people to prove it. Saddam, and Bin Laden. Those two people can not be found with over 10 Billion dollars, and thousands of NV.

In a riot or civil unrest, a cool head, planning ahead, and a strong presence are better. In a civil unrest or riot, unless you own a gunshop, criminals are going to look for the easy target. If you are holed up in you r house in the dark at night, you are more likely to be a target then the guy with floodlights and barred windows. If you are in a neighborhood that you are that fearful of dedicated attackers, you would be better prepared to try to move to a safer neighborhood.

 

[Joe Demko]

Testify, DrDremel, testify!

 

[NukemJim]

A question please for those who are more knowlegable than I.

If you do not use a NVD ( assume GenIII ) at all how many years will it last ?

Thank you

NukemJim

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

NukemJim, As long as the unit does not go to air (seals fail) I don't know if it will go bad. Not sure really.

DrDremel, I think the original post mentioned the end of the world as we know it kind of thing. If that is the case there will be no commerce and resupply. Eventually people would be driven to desperation and would begin the door to door looting. Then it could be useful.

 

[DrDremel]

this is a TEOTWAWKI scenario, there are many more pressing issues to worry about than NV. Do you have a permanent clean water source and the means to process the water for your lifetime? Do you have a sustainable food source for ALL your food needs. Do you have a lifetime supply of soap, toilet paper, clothing, etc. Do you have enough supplies to maintain your home for the rest of your life? Do you have a lighting system, because there will be no batteries, bulbs, electricity or anything else? Do you have the knowledge and skills to make the soap, candles, cloth, and any other supplies that you will need for the rest of your life? Do you have birth control to last your lifetime? If not, then you will need a lot more supplies. Do you have proper medical supplies to last a lifetime? How about transportation? Gasoline will not be available in a world collapse. How about heat for the house? Do you have a planned system to supply all of these things? Unless you live in a very rural area, there will not be any trees within a year or two as people use them to make fires. If you live in the city or suburbs, you would not be able to defend your home from invaders long term unless you were always on patrol. This is just not going to happen. You will be too busy with all of the stuff listed above.

If you are thinking of a nuclear war scenario, then those that survive would have even more trouble. Remember that the bunkers built for Congress, that cost billions of dollars, could only sustain themselves for 3 months at best. This was with a team of experts. I spent some time thinking about this and have come to the conclusion that it is logical to prepare for short term emergencies. Bugging out at the first sign of trouble will not work either. If this is an end of the world as we know it scenario, you would be heading to a cabin or wherever you plan on bugging to, that is already looted as friendships will be broken as people try to survive and will take what they can from whoever has it. You would then head back to a house that is looted as well since you r neighbors know you left for the hills and figured you won’t make it back.

I find many of the posts on gun boards have very specific SHTF scenarios that are built up to support whatever item or items the person writing wants or has. These scenarios are usually more fantasy than reality. Not that there is anything wrong with it for fun but most of these scenarios are made up by people that think of them as viable and possible scenarios. There was a recent post about what guns you would take to Africa in 1928 while exploring. This post, while fun, was not meant to be taken seriously.

The person that thinks the world will turn into a road warrior type situation is exactly the type of stereotype that the anti-gun crowd wants to show us as. Just as those that think they are ninjas, or that they are going to be running around with a Kevlar helmet, assault west, thigh holster, wearing night vision goggles, camo outfit on patrol in the neighborhood while there is a breakdown in the government and all hell breaks loose, they are living in a fantasy world. Like a modern day Dungeons and Dragons fantasy kid running around with tights on and a sword on his back thinking he is half elf because he was watching Lord of the Rings.

Don’t take this as an attack on all posts on preparedness, but you really need to think about what will really happen, as opposed to what you would like to think could happen. Prepare for power outages, interruption of the water supply, food stoppage, natural disaster that might happen in your area, etc for short term. In some areas, preparing for a forest fire, flood or such would be cause for a bug out bag. Nuclear war, worldwide government collapse, or these types of scenarios are too widespread and catastrophic to prepare for. No one on this board is rich enough to be able to prepare for this type of event. This is all just my opinion, you may agree or not but if you did not want to discuss it, you would not have posted on a forum.
I find it odd that the post says that if you don’t agree with the scenario, don’t post. What you really want to say was that you made up your mind and don’t want to hear any opinion that is not exactly the same as yours.

 

[Joe Demko]

I'd like to add a bit about the "being on patrol" thing. The majority of "riot nerds" as I recently heard TEOTWAWKI/SHTF scenario junkies called don't seem to grasp that "patroling" is basically a non-productive activity. Whoever is on guard duty isn't helping with the crops or all the other sundry chores that make up daily life in what would be essentially a subsistence agriculture economy. In the post-SHTF future such folks fantasize about, those chores will be both more numerous and physically harder thanin our own age of technological convenience. Our riot nerds, I suspect, basically picture themselves doing nothing but patrolling and shooting it out with spikey-haired mutuants. They aren't digging a new latrine. They aren't helping to grub this year's crop of rutebagas out of the ground. They aren't doing the laundry w/ a tub and washboard. They aren't mucking out the stalls where the livestock (if any) are kept. Somebody else must be doing all that strenuous, messy, unglamorous stuff.
When you're patrolling or guarding, the best that can happen is nothing. Nobody killed, no ammunition or other (perhaps limited) supplies expended. Even so, there was at least one set of hands not working but that still needed to be fed.
I'm with DrDremel. Short term stuff can, and should, be prepared for. Identify what the realistic threats are for where you live.

 

[goon]

If the S hath hitteth TF, there will be no rules.
I was a 12B.
You wouldn't want to just haphazardly step into my yard.
Trust me on that.

 

[Chris Rhines]

A couple of comments on night-vision equipment:

- Go out one night and wander your neighborhood for a while. What's the ambient light level? Where are your light sources coming from? Is NVE going to be a big help in your area?

- Get your mitts on a couple of sets of NVGs before you buy. Quality can vary widely, even between identical models. On this note, don't even bother with GenI or GenII stuff, or non-U.S. equipment. If you can't afford a set of GenIII ITTs, save up until you can.

- Once you get your NVGs, go out and train with them. Go hiking at night. Use them at the range. Don't assume that dropping $2500 on a nifty tool instantly makes you into a badass.

- The micro-channel plate on GenIII units should last for about 10000 hours of continuous use. Once the micro-channel plate goes bad, that's it, so make a point of checking your NVGs frequently. I've been told that the power supply is often the first thing that goes bad, and that may be cheaper to repair/replace. I wouldn't cache a night-vision set in a place where I couldn't check on it; I've heard of some units dying after several months of storage. OTOH, I have an old set of -7Bs that wasn't turned on for four years, that fired right up last month...

- Chris

 

[444]

I have very little experience with night vision gear, so my input doesn't count for much. I have used night vision gear exactly twice. Once was a set of military binocular devices. I don't know what model and didn't know then. The second time was a civilian riflescope.
Last winter, I went out to the middle of no-where with a friend of mine who owns two Gen III night vision riflescopes. These are not military and they are not Russian, they are civilian but I don't remember the name. He had the newer one mounted on an AR15. He also had an infared flashlight; it looked just like a five D-Cell Maglight only you couldn't see the beam with the naked eye. Our goal was to shoot jackrabbits and possibly run into a coyote. We were in the Nevada desert actually pretty close to the part of the Nevada Test Site called Area 51 or Groom Lake. The closest town was probably 30-50 miles away and they would be towns of maybe 50 people. In other words there was absolutely no artificial light at all. It was kind of overcast also so there was some natural light, but not a full moon or anything like that. Anyway, I was very disappointed in the night vision scopes for what we were doing. If a rabbit was standing in the middle of the dirt road we could see it fine. But, if the rabbit was in the brush, you couldn't tell what was rabbit and what was brush. Obviously the rabbit was in the shadows and it was all but invisible. The infared light was also of little use. It just didn't have the power. It worked for maybe 10 feet, anything farther than that and it was of no help. This led me to believe that night vision gear was of very limited use. In the senario listed, there would be pretty much no artifical light since there would be no commercial power available. I suppose that in a city, night vision equipment would work better than it would in a rural area. In a city, you could see a dark lump next to a building, but in an area where there was brush and trees, an odd shape wouldn't stand out like it would on concrete. It seemed to me, if someone was trying to be sneaky, using concealment, staying in the shadows, staying low to the ground and not silhouetting himself against the sky, he would be very hard to spot even with night vision gear.
We both shot a couple rabbits using the night vision scope and it was very cool to be sitting there in darkness where you couldn't see the target at all, see a muzzle flash (and hear a report), turn on the headlights and see a rabbit laying there dead. But these shots had to be carefully set up.