Rule on IDPA shooting question?

[LightningMan]

Hello all, I have just started shooting IDPA type shooting, with only my 4th shoot under my belt, in which so far have had a good time doing so. I'm not going to get real serious into this gun game, but none the less I want to do my best. To get to the point of this post, I went to a match and the RO was going over some of the rules and was taken back a little by this one; "Any firearm with a manual safety must be activated" Now I think everyone would agree anyone shooting a 1911 style pistol, that this is a must, as well as some others, but about DA only pistols as there are some that do have safeties, so why would they need to have their safety on? There are other DA only pistols without any manual safety on them, like Glocks & XD's. I originally was going to shoot a M40 Steyr that day, but changed to my Sig 226 after hearing this, and did ask the RO about the problem I would have with my M40. I was told if I was going to use that pistol, that I would have to use the safety. I felt for me anyway that it would be somewhat unsafe to use that gun, as my trigger finger is not long enough to get the leverage needed to get the safety off, without trying to change my grip to do so, then back to get a proper shooting grip. I guess I just don't understand the reason behind the rule when it comes to double action only type pistols. FWIW I would not use the safety on my Steyr M40 pistol if I were to use it for a carry gun. LM

 

[Sam1911]

That is an interesting question. We had a fellow who shot with us for a year or so who used a Steyr and was never required to activate that forward safety. But since I've been MD, I've not had to make that call.

Rule C15 says:
"C 15. Pistols must start from the mechanical condition of readiness appropriate to their design and be loaded to division capacity"

There are various DA/SA guns with decocker levers, or safety levers, or safety levers that also can function as a decockcer. In those cases, you are only required to start either cocked and on safe (ESP) or decocked (SSP). You aren't required to be both decocked and on safe.

Now with the Steyr I can see where the question arises in the safety officer's mind -- if there is a safety lever, shouldn't it be applied? In this case I'd personally probably say no, but that would be a call to be made by the Match Director. If you want absolute clarification, though, you should probably contact IDPA HQ.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have only shot a Steyr once and though the trigger was Glockish enough not to need a manual safety. If I were MD I would rather you NOT use a safety catch inside the trigger guard.

 

[Hk Dan]

I agree with Sam. We don't require shooters starting with DA to start with their safety on, and nothing in the rle book suggests that you have to. In fact, in USPSA it's a bonafide start condition, and USPSA if far more Nazi-like than IDPA!

 

[MrBorland]

I can't comment on the specific ruling being discussed, and I can appreciate your confusion on it, so it's good you got some feedback. But since you're a new IDPA shooter, I'd like to suggest not spending much time generally trying to understand the rationale behind all their rules.

You'll often hear a lot of complaining about this rule or that rule, and sometimes it seems some shooters engage in the topic because it's become socially cool to do so. What they don't seem to realize is that not only can it become tedious to others to have to listen to, it can affect your own enjoyment of the game.

I don't understand the rationale behind some of the rules myself, but my attitude is that it's their game, their rules (and that the SOs word is final). Whether it's IDPA or another venue, I have a great time at matches partly because I don't feel like I'm being victimized by the rulebook. Their game, their rules.

 

[ny32182]

My consistent understanding has always been that across all (auto, at least) divisions, if the gun starts in the holster in single action, then if it has a manual safety, it must be engaged. If it starts in double action, it does not. I am not familiar with the Steyr, but if it is considered by the manufacturer to be a double action, I would wager that the SO was incorrect. If it is considered by the manufaturer to be a single action, then I think the SO would be right.

Note that the actual feel of the trigger compared to other platforms is not the relevant factor; the classification of the trigger by the manufacturer/ATF is the deciding factor. Example: some people get their panties in a bunch over the XD being single action and therefore not eligible for SSP, while the Glock and M&P are double action and are eligible for SSP.

 

[Sam1911]

Note that the actual feel of the trigger compared to other platforms is not the relevant factor; the classification of the trigger by the manufacturer/ATF is the deciding factor. Example: some people get their panties in a bunch over the XD being single action and therefore not eligible for SSP, while the Glock and M&P are double action and are eligible for SSP.

Ah HA, but ... both the xD and the M&P are available without a thumb safety -- or WITH a thumb safety. Obviously if neither has a thumb safety, a thumb safety cannot be activated. However, if a thumb safety is present on a gun that could come either with or without ... would you say it MUST be engaged? Does that answer somehow change depending on whether the gun is in SSP or ESP?

 

[ny32182]

I would say that on the XD it would have to be engaged; M&P, no, and division would not be relevant (only the M&P possibly being in SSP of course).

I very well could be wrong.

 

[Sam1911]

Ok...why would you say that? The division would be the only difference between the guns. An xD isn't any more or less "single-action" than an M&P. The internals are more or less identical. The Glock is just a little bit different than those two.

 

[ny32182]

While I agree that from the user perspective, the performance is very similar, as we know, the mfg/ATF, and thus IDPA, consider the XD to be single action and M&P/Glock to be double action. That is the difference, rather than the division.

 

[Sam1911]

Oh. It's certainly only a paper difference, but I guess I see your point. However, I have no idea if it's enforced that way. I've never seen an xD or M&P with a thumb safety, let alone run someone with one. Might be worth a quick check with HQ to see how they call it.

ETA: I sent an email to HQ ... will report whatever they say on both questions.

 

[LightningMan]

Thank you guys for all your replys, as I am learning the rules as I go. It doesn't bother me so much to have to switch off a safety like a 1911 or even my XD .45 (as it has one) but the Steyr is a different animal it's safety is difficult for me to flip off easially because of its location, or the shortness of my trigger finger. Although I can deactivate the safety with my middle finger with no problems, but I don't want to be having switching fingers all the time to use this gun. LM

 

[Sam1911]

LM, I'll let you know what HQ says whenever they respond, and even post a copy of their email if you want to keep it in your shooting bag for next time an MD or SO calls you on this.

Personally, I've inspected that safety system and don't believe it is intended to be used that way at all, but as a supplementary securing option for locking the gun when not in use (so it could be left loaded but somewhat safer from curious fingers?), or possibly when entering a heightened security area (like a prison guard, perhaps?) when the gun is safer temporarily disabled.

It just doesn't seem to be arranged for constant use like a thumb safety.

But thats my personal opinion. When HQ responds, we'll have the official story.

 

[LightningMan]

Thanks Sam1911, I look forward to your reply. I tried to plea my case to the MD or RO, but his reply was; Then why did they (meaning the manufacturer) put the safety there for. I did not argue, just decieded to switch to a DA/SA type pistol, with decocker, (SIG 226) I totally agree with you about what the possable intended use for that safety was for. Thanks again, LM.

 

[Sam1911]

All right! Got an answer from my AC:

And I quote...

There have been guns in IDPA for many years that have additional safeties. An example of this would be the Beretta 92FS or M9 pistol. The gun is in the proper mechanical condition of readiness when the hammer is decocked. The question of leaving the safety on or off is up to the shooter, and either way is legal to use in IDPA. When Champion shooter Ernest Langdon shot a Beretta, he carried it decocked and with the safety OFF. This was considered both legal and safe at many state and national level IDPA matches.


With regards to the M&P with the external thumb safety, The safety is an additional measure. The mechanical condition of readiness is a loaded chamber, and the passive safeties engaged. The Thumb safety is an additional level of safety, but like the thumb safety of the aforementioned Beretta 92fs, it is the shooter's option to engage or leave disengaged.


With regards to the Steyr, the safety is also an additional level and is used or not at the shooter's discretion. Like many other striker fired pistols, the Steyr has two passive firing pin safeties that are always in use.


Sorry we have not seen each other, but with three clubs on the same day, two with new match directors; I never can decide where to go.


Ted Murph
Area Coordinator, Pa/NJ

 

[Six]

With regards to the M&P with the external thumb safety, The safety is an additional measure. The mechanical condition of readiness is a loaded chamber, and the passive safeties engaged. The Thumb safety is an additional level of safety, but like the thumb safety of the aforementioned Beretta 92fs, it is the shooter's option to engage or leave disengaged.

Huh, that doesn't jive with my understanding of the rules.

So are you ever required to use a manual safety (if present)?

Is there anything remotely resembling a definition for mechanical condition of readiness for various divisions or firearm types? Or is "double action starts hammer down" it?

 

[jmorris]

Lots of reading, simply put DA you start hammer down for SSP or safety on for CDP/ESP. You never have to do both for any class.

 

[LightningMan]

Thanks Sam1911 for the update. LM

 

[ny32182]

Thanks Sam; nothing he said conflicts with what I was thinking, however, I wish he also would have directly addressed the XD with a manual thumb safety. If the XD is single action (and IDPA considers it so since this gun can only go in ESP), it still seems to me you would still have to have the thumb safety on if present, or else, how would you argue that a 1911 needs to have the thumb safety on? It has passive safeties as well.

 

[rwilson37643]

The IDPA leaves the decision up to the match director. he can require the saftey be engaged or not same as the 180 degree rule, hot range rule ect.

 

[jmorris]

The IDPA leaves the decision up to the match director. he can require the saftey be engaged or not same as the 180 degree rule, hot range rule ect.

What page of the rulebook is that on?

They cover "muzzle safe points"/MD made 180 rule on p.6

Hot ranges on p.8

Condition of readiness on p.10 "appropriate to their design". If you shoot at nationals they think appropriate is hammer down safety off or cocked and locked. If they thought you must be hammer down and have a safety on they would ban glocks/other no safety pistols and all revolvers from the game.

I will say this, MD's can break any idpa rule they want at any time. I have seen them all broken at one time or another but then your not really shooting idpa anymore.

 

[dhfenno]

Sam,

Much thought, and speculation on this still doesn't give a clear answer.
Respect to Ted but I think I would like to hear from HQ on this one.
Would you allow a Para 1911 LDA shoot w/o engaging the thumb safety?

Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

 

[Jim Watson]

Would you allow a Para 1911 LDA shoot w/o engaging the thumb safety?

Yes.
A club member here shoots one routinely and does not use the thumb safety.
He has never been told to do so or even questioned about it.
If it is double action enough to get in SSP, it is safe enough to holster without a manual safety.

 

[Sam1911]

Respect to Ted but I think I would like to hear from HQ on this one.

I can understand that, but I first sent my request to them and got no answer. After a week of waiting (now considerably more) no answer from them was forthcoming.

And, yes, a Para LDA could be shot hammer-down, safety off. Not a whole lot of reason to switch to a double-action trigger if you're going to use a safety as well. Might as well stick to SA.

 

[Bovice]

Hahaha, time and time again I see that safety officers have no idea how to handle the situation if it's not a Glock or M&P.