Russian % Chinese Shotguns

[LynnKCircle]

About the only purpose I'll use a shotgun for would be home defense. My current home defense guns are a 9mm and a .45, but I'd like something I could load up with non-lethal ammo such as the 12 gauge rubber ball rounds I see advertised. So I'm looking for a low-cost reliable gun.

(If I had my druthers and money was no object, I'd probably get an 18" barrel Mossberg Mariner with ghost ring sights. But I could buy two Saigas for the price of one of those.)

I'll probably put about 100 rounds through it to familiarize myself with it. After than it will generally be sitting, so I don't need a gun which will last 100,000 rounds. On the other hand, I don't want a POS which might fail to feed, extract, or fire when I really need it.

I'm currently considering an 18" Hawk from CDNN for $150.00 (Chinese) and know nothing about them except they're copies of US guns. But for $50.00 more I could get the Saiga which has a good reputation. In fact, there are only two things about the Saiga which makes me question getting it. First of all, it has a 22" barrel, and I wonder if that extra 4" will make a difference manuvering in a narrow hallway. Secondly, (and less importantly) if shotguns are analgous to rifles, bolt-action and pump are a breeze to clean and maintain. Semi-auto require field stripping and careful cleaning after each range session.

What would the experts on here recommend? Thanks, all.

 

[cordex]

I'd like something I could load up with non-lethal ammo such as the 12 gauge rubber ball rounds I see advertised.

You might want to reconsider using less-lethal ammunition in a weapon you plan on using for home defense - for a variety of reasons.

As to the question at hand, my brother has a Norinco 870 knockoff. It works just fine, but the safety is miserable and the slide doesn't move very smoothly.


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[HiWayMan]

Can't comment on the Russian or Chinese shotguns.

However I agree with cordex. Non-lethal rounds are for riot control. Steel and lead are for HD. Rubber balls may work for discouraging four legged critters, but never comprimise with the two legged variety. You wouldn't load less than lethal ammo in your 9mm or .45 would you?

 

[LynnKCircle]

I would only load the first round with a "less-than-lethal," and if the intruder didn't immediately turn tail, follow it with a fully lethal one. I'm thinking more of a CYA legally than anything else.

 

[HiWayMan]

At indoor distances you may only get that one shot off. You had better make it count.

However, most rubber rounds have a warning that they may be lethal within 20'.

 

[TimRB]

"I would only load the first round with a "less-than-lethal," and if the intruder didn't immediately turn tail, follow it with a fully lethal one. I'm thinking more of a CYA legally than anything else."

By now you're getting the gist of everyone's thinking on the "less-than-lethal" ammo, and I agree. If the intruder doesn't turn tail at the sight of the shotgun alone, you'd better be ready for business. In general I disagree with the people who load up their shotguns with assortments of ammo: slugs, buckshot, birdshot, LTL. Decide what's best, and load up with that; otherwise you have one or more rounds of the wrong ammo.

As for cost, it looks like you're willing to spend up to 200 bucks or so for a shotgun. That's about what the Mossberg 500s and Winchester 1300s go for on sale. Can you wait?

Tim

 

[LynnKCircle]

Well, the truth is Tim that I was debating between a used Mossberg 500A 18" barrel which was going for $150.00 or the Saiga, which would run me about $230.00 delivered. I took a good close look at the Mossberg, found that while the exterior showed some wear, the interior metal looked new when it was field stripped. Apparently it really is a "carried in a truck a lot, shot a little" gun.

Anyhow, I ended the debate by .... getting both! The Mossberg is currently disassembled on my work table awaiting a thorough cleaning and proper lubrication, and the Saiga ought to be at my FFL dealer this Saturday. While I'm once again "gun rich and dollar poor," I'm a very happy camper. Since I've never fired a shotgun at all, I'm looking forward to the experience this weekend, weather permitting. (I don't pay for the clay range, obviously, since these are the first shotguns I've ever owned, but my annual dues do entitle me to the defensive shotgun range, and that's where I'll be.)

Oh, and thank you and everyone else for the advice. Upon due consideration, I have to admit you guys are right. Now the only choices will be whether go to for 00 buck or something with less penetration when the gun (probably the Mossberg) sits beside my bed ...

 

[VictorLouis]

I can't imagine anyone other that a LEO being able to use "less-lethal". The employment of a SG(any gun) is, in and of itself, considered to be lethal force.

If they DON'T warrant a deadly response, then the baton, OC, or Taser is the obvious choice. You DON'T want to be pointing a firearm at anyone if he/she doesn't warrant it. Now, if someone merits that level of force, then certainly we should choose something more effective.

 

[sm]

VictorLouis, I agree with your post.

I'm one to consider parts and service if I should ever need for a firearm. Hey I used a buttstock to break ice and replaced both wood and syn stocks. "Sometimes" imports change spec and stuff won't change /interchange if need.

There a lot of good buys on any of the Big Four - used, police trade ins, folks getting married/divorced/baby on the way[ newpaper want ads] and in my case I picked bought a NIB 870 Express for $199 at Academy Sports. Normally $219 , but we had a new store open and the new stores get to do opening specials.

 

[max popenker]

Just my $.02 - do not use Saiga for home defence! the box magazines, when stored loaded for long time, tend to compress plastic shells from round to oval cross-section, and this can lead to failures to feed - last thing desired in home defence situation.
the tube fed gun, loaded 1 or 2 rounds below max magazine capacity, will be IMO much more reliable option.
Furthermore, with less lethal ammo some semi-autos, especially gas operated gun slike Saiga, will not cycle because of lower pressures.
So, pump is obvious choice.

For inexpensive pump i suggest a Russian-made MP-133 , imported by EAA Corp.
For very decent semi-auto (in many ways superior to Saiga, but less evil-looking) i can suggest the MP-153 , also imported by EAA.
Both are quite popular in their rodina (land of birth ), and, IMHO, both superior to Saiga, especially for home defence and hunting.

 

[EghtySx]

I kinda like the coach gun for HD, backed up by a reliable revolver. Not as many shots but less likely to fail when the SHTF


http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/coach-supreme.tpl
and a Colt Python at my house

 

[Fred Fuller]

Lynn,

Glad to hear of your choices. They are more apt to provide the protection you really need without adding to your liabilities. Nothing that can be fired out of a shotgun should be considered non-lethal, the best it gets is 'less lethal' and if private citizen you is going to discharge a firearm at another human that's something to keep in mind.

"But officer/Mr. District Attorney/Your Honor, I didn't intend to KILL him."

"Then why did you SHOOT him?"

If you are legally justified in shooting, your act must conform to the laws concerning deadly force in your juristiction. I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on teevee, but I have been certified as an NRA instructor in three disciplines as well as a concealed carry instructor, and the legal implications are huge. Be familiar with them, thoroughly familiar, in making your decisions about what to use for home defense and when to use it.

Stay safe,

lpl