rust never sleeps--or the eternal push for illegal immigrant amnesty

[longeyes]

Bush's first veto? Or his last hurrah?

Here's a note from Bay Buchanan of the Tom Tancredo group:


[email protected] Add to Address BookAdd to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
To: [email protected]
Subject: [TA] Urgent News!




Dear Friend,

I have some bad news on our immigration battle and wanted to get it to
you
as soon as possible.

Next Monday the plan is for the Senate Judiciary Committee to meet and
ram
through their back room deal with little or no debate. We expect they
may
send the bill to the Senate floor on Monday!

The best we can tell now is that this bill, which is being put together
by
Senator Kennedy and Senator Specter’s staffs this week, behind closed
doors, will give amnesty to all 12 million illegal aliens they believe
are
here now. (Our number is closer to 20 million.)

Our hope was that Senator Frist will substitute his bill, which he
himself
has called an enforcement only bill as recently as last month, for the
Kennedy/McCain/Specter amnesty bill.

Here is the really bad news. While Senator Frist’s bill has little to
no
amnesty in it, it is NOT an enforcement only bill. It more than
doubles
green cards—it would take our legal immigration numbers from 1 million
to
over 2 million a year!!

If you take the two bills out 10 years, Kennedy/McCain/Specter would
legalize 25 million foreigners during the next decade and Frist would
legalize over 20 million! And the Frist bill goes on forever with those
huge annual numbers.

Both bills would be disastrous for a country!!

And these numbers don’t include the increase in H1B visas and the like.
Kennedy’s bill wants to take the 65,000 that come in today and increase
it
to 165,000 annually—a 100,000 more a year! That’s nothing compared to
Frist’s plan. He wants to increase these visas by 400,000, so nearly
500,000 foreigners could come take American jobs every year!!

These Senators are nuts!! They are bound and determined to destroy this
nation. We have to stop them. Please get on the phones and don’t give
up.

I am going down to the Senate right now to brief staffers on the
political
fallout of these bills. Please pray I am able to reach them. We must
stop these bills from becoming law!

Thanks for all your help,
Bay

 

[Sindawe]

Three things that need to be applied to Washingtion D.C. in great quantities.

Tar

Feathers

Rope

 

[Biker]

longeyes...
I got the same email this AM which prompted me to make a couple of calls to my State reps. Likely, it did no good at all. I'm convinced that that we no longer have anything to say concerning immigration. This country has been bought and sold and the new landlords don't care to listen to the tenants.
Biker

 

[longeyes]

Let's say you're right...

Now what?

 

[Biker]

longeyes...

Those last two words have been bugging the hell out of me for awhile now.
I'm out of ideas. Millions of us write, fax and call on a regular basis but the pols won't listen because they don't have to.
Shortly after Bush took office and he was bouncing the idea of a general amnesty around with the MSN, his base went crazy because of the idea. I remember Rove telling Bush not to worry about his base because "They have nowhere else to go".
I still say let's prove 'em wrong.
Otherwise, we'll just have to wait for a signal.
Biker

 

[bg]

SCOTUS is looking at a case right now concerning illegal
immigration. I can only the hope the ruling suggests
a suitcase would be a wise investment.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/scotus_d...35kIdWs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

Justice
Antonin Scalia and Chief Justice John Roberts asked why any illegal immigrant who had been deported would think they had a right to appeal.

Then on the other hand I read this..Very demoralizing.

http://www.yahoo.com/s/282905

Of 2,010 Mexicans and Americans surveyed by research groups CIDAC and Zogby International,69 percent of Americans and 90 percent of Mexicans opposed a proposal in the U.S. Congress to build a fence along much of the 2,000-mile (3,200-km) border.

 

[El Barto]

If you are seeking to protect your American Heritage, then you are already losing.

Maywood, CA is pro-illegal and wants to re-name local school after Mexican president.

http://tinyurl.com/nlsk8

Immigration is a subject that really bothers me. I believe that if you come to the US, then you should assimilate into the US culture. Notice I did not say, forget your own culture. All of us are immigrants to some degree, but we have become Americans.

I see first hand the destruction of America and I am powerless.

 

[dmallind]

The standard line on THR is "I'm not anti immigrant, I'm anti-illegal!"

This email is certainly anti-LEGAL immigrant too. The US is certainly not full with a population density well under that of many countries. Its unemployment rate is far from the highest, even amongst industrial and technology leaders, so why the angst about LEGAL immigration portrayed by supporters of this action?

This is why it's easy for opponents of immigration to garner the charge of both bigotry (no damn furriners here!) and hypocrisy (the Schmidts and Wisniewskis are REAL Americans - not like these damned Dominguezes and Bannerjees!) It's very important to be clear about legal vs. illegal immigration. Opposing the latter, as long as suggested security and enforcement measures are appropriate to the crime, may be reasonable; opposing the former is a very tricky stance to take without appearing lamentably xenophobic and two-faced. I think this email crosses that line.

Full disclosure (not that it should matter, but to prevent it being used as a red herring rebuttal): I am a very much legal immigrant of 15 years, naturalized for the last 10. While I am not one to suggest landmines and dog patrols on every inch of border, I am not at all supportive of illegal immigration.

 

[Biker]

dmallind...

Fact is, I believe that a ten year moratorium should be placed on *all* immigration until the current mess is sorted out.
After that, re-evaluate and act in the best interests of this country, *not the corps or big-ag*.
BTW, normally racism is normally thrown in with "bigotry" and "xenophobe".
Biker

 

[dmallind]

So close the doors because I'm nice and warm inside but screw the guys outside queueing nice and orderly to get in?

Would the moratorium have been OK during whatever decade the Biker ancestors moved here? Or the Buchanan ancestors?

What's the justification there? We're full? Nope. No jobs for anybody else? Wrong too. No welfare money? Legal immigrants in all but a few classifications don't qualify anyway for several years (but they pay taxes to fund it - sort of an entry fee I suppose). Helath risks? Vetted. Criminals? Background checked. Ignorant of culture and history? Have to pass a test to vote (wish this was universal). Don't like furriners and darkies and people with funny accents, or don't like competition for jobs? No answer there, but surely that's not the reason for any rational and balanced person!

 

[bg]

I myself am not anti immigrant, but believe the illegal
immigrant should be punished for breaking U.S immigration
laws. The very first act an illegal does when entering the
U.S without going through immigration is BREAK THE LAW !

I am with Biker on this, I believe the U.S does need a
moratorium in order to assimilate the mass that has
come here. Problem is the politico's couldn't give a darn
about this and in fact want to grant the right for those
here illegally to remain here. That to me is flat wrong.

I can do little but call, write, and vote to voice my
dissatisfaction with my Congress Critters actions
regarding this issue. What I find out is they don't
listen, toss my letter's and couldn't care less about
just one person's vote. Wish I were wrong, but it sure
doesn't feel that way.

 

[Biker]

dmallind...

Yup, close the door, and when my ancestors came here, warm bodies were needed, unlike now.
Check out the sites in my sig for info on how overcrowding is effecting our country. Hell, start with L.A. for an example of a 3rd world colony in the US.
Immigrants, illegal mostly, have driven the wages down in this country and driven taxes up. The CIS estimated in 1999 that the average immigrant takes $56,000 more out of the system than they put in over a lifetime.
Where's the benefit for us?
There are no health checks.
Next?
Biker

 

[jlseagull]

Ummmm... No offense, but this sounds like the kind of email used to rattle the sabers of the right wing against a much smaller bill.

So, if the actual bill was "close the McDonald's next to Mr.X's house because they failed to pay taxes", you'd receive an email from Mr. X alerting you that a bill was "on a table in the house to be signed into law RIGHT NOW", which would "SHUT DOWN ALL MCDONALDS in the US because Ted Kennedy thinks Americans (himself included) are too fat".

React away, but this smells of BS. And it's kind of sad that no one has called it before me.:banghead:

 

[Biker]

Buchanan has been fighting this battle for awhile now and his info has always been accurate. You might research the man a bit.
Biker

 

[Standing Wolf]

If you hand out free money and citizenship, they will show up.

If the Republicans are stupid enough to vote in favor of an amnesty for the cockroaches, they deserve to lose this fall's elections by massive margins.

 

[dmallind]

Sorry Biker but the stats don't smell right and I know from personal experience there ARE helth checks, unless the US embassy just picked on me as a joke to send me to the turn and cough guy and get a chest X-ray, blood test and so on.

I've taken not one dime of federal or state assistance and last year alone paid $61000 in Federal taxes.

It's easy to say I'm an exception. It's wrong - certainly for the health check (others were in the same damn waiting room for one). It's also wrong for the contribution. We have several first generation immigrants working here. My Doctor is a 1st gen from China - god knows what taxes HE pays. The consultant who installed the SAP QM module I'm running reports on right now - 1st gen from South Africa (married to a 1st gen Chinese woman) and goes for $225 an hour. Favorite restaurant - smack right downtown in a rent district that's well into six figures a year - run by a guy who definitely got his accent from Mumbai rather than Maplewood. It's not like I seek them out and I live in MN for pete's sake - hardly destination number one for immigrants. I can just see all those Indian guys thinking "Ya know Ritesh I really need to go to live in a place where it's below zero for months out of the year and the only cricket anyone's heard of make chirping noises" Yet most immigrants I meet - presumably legal but it's not like I check - are damn well contributing more than they take.

Is it different for illegals? probably - if they were likely to be major contributors they could probably get in legally. Do you see more of that side in LA? Sure Idaho? Dunno but doubt it. You tell me - I'm betting most immigrants there are pretty decent contributors too. So how do you keep out folks who are spongers and let in the guys like us? Easy - you test, set entry requirements, and apply them pretty rigorously. Wanting a ten year moratorium on legal immigration just can't be explained without recourse to xenophobia at a stretchy best. The jobs are there. There is space aplenty. We make money and pay taxes.

Look at some less biased sources perhaps, and make sure you know which raw data they are using. I could find an awful lot negative about gays by looking to Fred Phelps for answers, but I would rather look to reputable sources.

 

[Biker]

So I'm a "xenophobe at the stretchy best"? You can throw in the "R" word too, but I don't give a rat's rectum. Rather than resort to the same ol' pro-immigrant tactics, why don't you refute the data my sources cite?
It really would strengthen your position.
Biker

 

[longeyes]

Do we need an immigration moratorium? Well, we certainly need, and deserve, the right, as Americans, to determine who should be invited to take up residence and citizenship in our country. That's for starters. We have the right to set the criteria and determine who we need and who we don't. Last time I checked Ted Kennedy didn't own America. Yet.

Let's get real: what's being proposed is going to bring in millions of unskilled and uneducated Central Americans, mostly Mexicans. The jobs are there? Where? Where are all these millions of jobs for unskilled people? The only jobs I see will be as cheap labor on construction crews building all the schools that will be needed in Southern California for the influx of Mexican kids. Of course those schools will be paid for by the American taxpayer, and, heresy though it may be to say, those in the lowest tax brackets do not pay their "fair" share of taxes, often paying virtually no taxes at all other than sales taxes.

Here we are in the middle of a global war that could determine our national survival, faced with serious threats from areas as different as China and South America, beset with serious labor problems that threaten the existence of our middle-class, buried in humongous debt, increasingly dependent on hostile nations for energy, dealing with mounting water shortages, looking at a crumbling infrastructure--and we're talking about inviting in tens of millions of newcomers who will weigh down our social welfare and education system and, by the way, send billions of dollars out of the country. If this isn't insanity, I don't know what is, but let's just call it by its other name: politics.

If the American people take this lying down and don't throw the bums out, I hope the Founding Fathers come storming out of their graves and cover D.C. with hellfire.

 

[dmallind]

Well why don't you come out from behind pressure group-slanted "statistics" and use reason.

If immigranst are causing crushing problems why is unemployment relatively low? If they are depressing income so much why is per capita income in the top 3 or 4 in the world? If they cause so much violent crime why is violent crime at moderate to low levels historically speaking. Per capita violent crime rates are far better than in the 80s (heck even raw numbers are better in a lot of cases - yet many more immigrants.

I am calling your motivation here xenophobic at best only because you have given me no better reason than biased pressure group numbers. If I take a few minutes to link to numbers that show immigration is a net benefit will you say "OK I'm refuted sorry" or "hell those are biased and inaccurate numbers dumbass!" (rhetorical question - I can guess ) So why is that any different from me saying the reverse. Why believe the "bad" numbers and not the "good".

I have told you and will again why I don't buy the bad numbers - because there's no correlation between the rather steadily rising number of immigrants and the cyclical or mostly downward trending numbers of all teh woes they are supposed to cause. Why is that do you think?

For the record I don't think immigration is necessarily a net positive, and certainly not for infinite extrapolation. My best inference from immigration vs economic and societal data is that so far there's not a whole lot of difference - level of immigration correlates with neither horrible pain to society or wonderful boon to society, which makes sense, since foreigners as a whole are no different in capabilities or behavior than native-born Americans as a whole. To think otherwiose you'd have to think an accident of birth dictates ability or behavior, which is BS

Also for the record I would only use the "r word" as you say for someone who said "I'm OK with Dave immigrating here as he's white and speaks English and has customs close to mine, but to hell with that brown-skinned elephant-worshipping Rajnit and his Indian accent". You however did not say that, and say to hell with both me and Rajnit, which means your bias is not at all by race, but by place of birth, making you instead possibly xenophobic, but no indications of racist.

Please be aware on public fora like this that many people, me included, may address specific poster's points but also intend arguments and debate for a wider audience. People who dislike foreigners for that reason ARE xenophobic - what else could they be? You may or may not be, but certainly use arguments that so far imply that. You have made no arguments that imply racism at all.

 

[dmallind]

You are not addressing your points specifically to me longeyes but are using my words so let me make something clear that may not have been.

I am fine with, actually support, and even recommended above, fairly stringent requirements for who should be allowed to immigrate, and also stated opposition, somewhat muted for this site though it is, to illegal immigration.

I DID and do say the jobs are there. I have tried to hire people for several jobs in the last few years. I get lousy and few responses. These are not obscure or difficult/underpaid jobs but decent paying Quality Engineer and Technician jobs for a pleasant, relaxed company with good benefits. I either get idiots who can't explain what a capability study is or people who want to make $100K for a $60K job, and only a handful of each. Same company also hires dozens and dozens of light, air conditioned, safe, seated assembly jobs starting at $9/hr and going up quickly. Not great of course, but hardly minimum wage for easy work and lots of prospects for people who learn and grow (our cost of living is moderate - don't use that number for an LA or NYC comparison). We are over 50% first gen in assembly and that's only because we have a lot of veteran workers from before recent immigration waves - applicants and new temps coming in are 80% 1st gen. Non-immigrants do not want these jobs very much. The ones who do tend to be minorities and second-third gen. Anecdotal? Sure. What is unemployment these days? 5% or so? Not as great as the 90s but historically very low. NOT anecdotal. Why aren't the jobs there?

Seriously (and not just to make a point honest) any QEs out there already here or looking to live in MN and make about $60K, maybe a touch more for a good candidate, drop me a PM since I brought it up - I've had nothing for months on that one. I won't even mind if you post on THR during quiet moments. That would be hypocritical

 

[NCP24]

Why aren't the jobs there?

Greed?

 

[longeyes]

For the record I don't dislike "foreigners," nor do I think legal immigration, in reasonable amounts, is a bad thing. It goes without saying that legal immigrants have made wonderful contributions to America. I do think we need, in general, to set criteria for entry that benefit our society as a whole. We also need to be aware of timing; this is far from an ideal time--for reasons I already cited--to open the floodgates. I don't care where the immigrants come from; I would apply the same standards to all of them--are they likely, as residents and eventually citizens, to improve the country and do they bring with them qualities we need?

Per capita income in the U.S. isn't where it is because of the influx of illegal immigrants. Do we really need to debate that one?

The L.A. PD has said that sixty per cent of Los Angeles gangbangers are illegal aliens. Close to thirty per cent of the Federal prison population is reportedly illegal aliens. Ignore those statistics at your own peril.

This nation has had no serious national debate about illegal immigration, yet we are now in the anteroom of policy changes that are likely to have a massive impact on American society for years to come. The bottom-line here is not even illegal immigration per se but lack of political representation for the people who really pay the freight in America and the ongoing sell-out of this country by a small number of political prostitutes. I've said this before, I'll say it again: The American middle-class is being swapped out for a more docile, controllable population, and the enormity of this political swindle is being utterly ignored.

 

[Kodiaz]

"now what?"

Yeah I think about that one a lot too fellas now what indeed.

 

[Art Eatman]

I'm against all immigration. Close the door. It's too (bleep) (and bleep, again) crowded. Too many people. Don't believe me? Drive through Houston at 5PM on any weekday.

Anybody who wants to move here is free to do so immediately after they pay somebody else to leave--and that person has left. I want a new Guvimint program, to pay people to leave.

There's even a rational and practical side to my argument: Water. All ya gotta do is look at the LA Basin, Las Vegas, Phoenix/Tucson, El Paso, Atlanta, Birmingham, Chattanooga. They have serious problems, and more users won't make it easier to deal with the shortages or soon-to-be shortages.

More people coming here? Bleccchhhh...

Art

 

[longeyes]

aguas, aguas!

The water shortfall isn't talked about enough but it's very real. People look at all the "empty space" and imagine it filled with folks. No way.