S&W 442...question

[orangeninja]

Alright so I'm going to give packing a J Frame another shot (excuse the pun). I had one before that I couldn't hit the side of a barn with because A.) I've never trained much with a wheel gun and B.) because the sights were rudimentary at best and C.) because the trigger pull was heavy, heavy.

Given that I would use this as a pocket pistol I really don't want a super light trigger pull, but I would like to lighten things up a bit without affecting reliability. Is this possible?

 

[denster]

Yes. Install a 13lb Wolff trigger return spring. It will make a world of difference and not affect reliability.

 

[Remllez]

J-frame sights haven't changed since the last one you had. The triggers aren't meant for target shooting either. These guns demand you practice and learn good shooting habits. Try shooting full or semi wadcutters for starters, they are light recoiling and easy to shoot.

Although they may be shot at 25 yards they are ostensibly short range blasters and are set up well from the factory for that purpose. Messing about with the triggers may affect reliability, so I recommend dry firing to build finger/hand strength.

Shooting often and making the most of your dry fire will pay dividends in all phases of your shooting. I've carried J's for many years and have become comfortable shooting them. It will take time but you will become proficient shooting these great little guns...

 

[2wheels]

1. Practice practice practice! Get snap caps and dry fire a whole lot to get used to the trigger pull while making sure you keep the sights steady on your target. You'll smooth out the trigger pull and learn to handle that heavy/long DA pull at the same time. When I got my 442 I noticed I was definitely pulling the sights off target when I pulled the trigger, the fix was as simple as fixing my finger placement on the trigger.

2. The sights are supposed to suck, paint something on the front sight if it helps you.

3. It's possible to reduce the trigger pull, if you choose to do so make sure you test your chosen carry ammo to make sure you don't suffer reliability issues like light primer strikes. I chose to simply practice practice practice.

 

[lowercase]

Practice is the absolute key to shooting a 442 or 642 accurately.

Dry fire the heck out of it while aiming at a target. Work on keeping the gun steady while executing a smooth trigger pull. Don't try to "stage" the trigger into where you pause at a single action point in the pull. Execute a solid, single pull.

The way you grip a 442/642 is also very important. Grip the firearm as high as you can (I tell my friends to "choke up" on the grip), and hold it very tightly. Think that you are trying to crush the gun in your grip. The natural tendency is to grip these guns too low, and too loosely. This raises the bore axis of the gun and allows it to flip upwards with more force. The more it flips, the more you'll flinch, and the more you'll miss the target.

Also, if you're having a hard time shooting the gun well, don't practice with +P ammunition. Practice with the easy stuff until you're used to the weapon.

 

[bdjansen]

I find it easier to "point" my 642 then to "aim" it. I find that it points very naturally. You don't want to be irresponsible with it like a cowboy in a movie, shooting from the hip. I'm talking about more of a state of mind then shooting the 642/442. Think "point" rather then "aim".

Something to try: Unload the gun, then just point it at something without using the sights. Then hold the gun where it is and check the sights. I find that the sights are always lined up with what I was pointing at.

When you take the gun to the range, shoot at paper dinner plates at 5 yards. That's the range it's meant for.

That's what works for me.

 

[dovedescending]

Slight threadjack: who does good after-market work on 442's and other air-weights? Sight inserts, barrel porting, cylinder chamfering [sic?], etc?

 

[denster]

Changing the trigger return spring to 13lb wil not repeat will not affect reliability and it most definitly will not cause light primer strikes. That would be caused by lightening the hammer spring.

 

[theicemanmpls]

Find a sit down bench at the range. Set up the sand bags. Place the target about 10-15 feet in front of the line.

Shoot slowfire two handed on the sandbags. 3 five round strings. See where your 442 patterns.

IMHO, this wheelgun is made for up close work.

This is my #2 carry gun.

 

[camsdaddy]

While I think its important to mainly practice at 3-5 yards I would hate to limit all of my practice at that.

 

[theicemanmpls]

While I think its important to mainly practice at 3-5 yards I would hate to limit all of my practice at that.

I didn't mean it to be practice. It was to impress upon the OP, how his choice of personal defense weapon works. I guess I should add, that he needs to keep moving the target back he will see how inaccurate that little barrel is at distance. Also, the "sighting in" he should use light loads, so the recoil is not punishing. I won't carry plus P ammo in this pistol. It not only punishes the gun, it punishes the operator. Why shoot if it hurts? It's not a "good" hurt like .44 magnum hurt. This just plain hurts.
IMO this is a up close wheel gun.

I never bring my 442 to the range alone. I always bring another .38 with at least 4" of barrel for fun shooting.
If you buy a 442, you have to own another 38 or 357, that is what you tell the wife anyway.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Some pretty solid advice so far.

I've carried a S&W M-642 (stainless version of the M-442) for several years (because the Ruger LCR wasn't available) as a BUG to my duty weapon. I had heavy trigger time with the S&W K/L/N frames and Colt D/I frames going in and knew that the J-frame would have the steepest learning curve...due to its small grips, short trigger/hammer travel and coil spring powered action. Even with that background, the 642 took the most practice to be able to get good hits out beyond 20 yards. While your likely employment of the gun will likely be much closer, shooting at longer distances serves the purpose of evaluating your technique

Having the action tuned and putting on better grips really does help (my pistolsmith has retired long ago) as does resisting the temptation to stage the trigger. On a blued gun, I'd recommend some yellow paint on the front ramp...it is also one of the few times I'd recommend installation of a XS Small Dot front sight blade.

There is an excellent J-frame kit from Apex Tactical that is out for folks who want a DIY option...which would meet the needs of 80% of users...while retaining reliable ignition. Insuring alignment in the cylinder assembly and reducing the drag there and in the action isn't for the beginner. I also like having the face of the trigger rounded and the cylinder release beveled.

Apex Tactical Specialties can work on a J-frame action, but they might have a backlog. I've also heard very good reports on the work from Gemini Customs

 

[orangeninja]

Maybe I'll get a Taurus instead. The S&W doesn't point as naturally to me as the Taurus does.

 

[9mmepiphany]

If you're still shopping, I'd recommend taking a hard look at the Ruger LCR. Everyone I've handled (4) has come with a great trigger

 

[orangeninja]

LCR is too big for the pocket. Tried one...

 

[theicemanmpls]

Maybe I'll get a Taurus instead. The S&W doesn't point as naturally to me as the Taurus does.

You need to go with what fits YOU the shooter the best.

Keep in mind. The S&W will work each time, every time. 99% success rate* if your weapon and ammo are properly maintained.

Can anyone say the same about the Taurus? Search this, or any other Internet gun rag. You will see very little if any FTF reports on the S&W vs the Taurus line. Search the number of agency contracts awarded to Taurus vs S&W and the other big guys.

Understand, Taurus firearms do have their place. IMHO, they are great recreational guns. Not as expensive as the good ones. Everyone will know you have a Taurus at the range because of the billboard stenciled into each one.

Perhaps they are like Mopeds.
Great to shoot, till your friends find out.

Fact; FTF are harder to clear in revolvers vs semi auto's.

*=educated guess

 

[msnden]

Interesting thread, I wish I had this to read when I purchased mine!! good advise
Shooting the 442 requires discipline & practice, I never go to the range without it, I practice at 7 yards, but never leave without taking a few shots at 15/20 yards. I will say this is the most challenging gun I have ever shot, I learned many of the above comments on my own & they work, I put some florescent paint on to help my old eyes, & because of the excessive dry fire I use snap caps, I have Handled & shot the Ruger LCR & you hear alot about it's trigger , which is pretty smooth, but the 442 smooths out pretty well also if give time (use) jmop msn

A little paint (it worksfor me)

 

[Old Fuff]

Springs

As it is said, there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Smith & Wesson revolvers don't have a trigger spring.

What the do have is a rebound slide spring. It does two things, (1) it pushes the trigger back to the forward position, and (2) it rebounds the hammer so that the firing pin doesn't block the next cartridge as the cylinder turns, and doesn't rest against a primer.

If you go too far in using a lighter spring you may hang up the trigger while it is trying to rebound the hammer, or the trigger may not go fully forward to reset the cylinder stop, and if at this point you try to pull the trigger again the action will jam. "Short stroking," as it is called, can also happen when you are firing several fast shots in the double-action mode. While the trigger is easier to pull, it is also slower to return.

If a lighter spring would work under any and all conditions, in any environment Smith & Wesson would use them. The fact that they don't should make one pause to think, "why not?"

The main reason the J-frame revolvers have heavy double-action trigger pulls is because they are... well... little. The relatively small trigger doesn't have the leverage that a larger one has to rotate the hammer backwards.

Professional gunsmiths that specialize in revolver work, as well as those doing similar adjustments at the factory, reduce trigger pull weight by eliminating unnecessary frictional resistance in both the cylinder assembly and the internal lockwork. They sometimes will do some minor work on the springs, but very little to next to none on any revolver that's intended to be used as a weapon.

 

[denster]

OK Old Fuff I stand corrected on the terminology. However it has been my not insignificant experience that 13lb is more than adequate always. Lighter springs are made but I don't think they should be generally suggested.

 

[orangeninja]

I prefer the Taurus grip angle and trigger. I've owned a Rossi that was absolutely reliable so I'll give a long hard look at Taurus. The S&W is a good gun but I don't want to buy it and modify it to suck. Thanks for all the opinions and information, especially to Old Fuff.

 

[Old Fuff]

OK Old Fuff I stand corrected on the terminology.

It wasn't my intent to dig you over language, but rather to point out that in a Smith & Wesson the (so called) trigger spring has to do more then simply return the trigger it its forward position. The spring is also required to insure the hammer rebounds and is blocked, and the the cylinder stop is reset for the next pull on the trigger. Add to that the trigger’s forward stroke must not be delayed or sluggish, because then you risk short stroking and a jammed action.

However it has been my not insignificant experience that 13lb is more than adequate always.

Yes and no. It is, if the trigger doesn't meet any unusual resistance. However on a revolver that’s generally used as a weapon S&W builds in more then "adequate," because they have to be sure that "always" really is. What distinguishes a professional tune-up is a pull that feels much lighter then it is, and the springs are still stock. To accomplish this involves much more then the techniques often mentioned on Internet forums or in gun magazines. It’s also related to the reason why one owner of a particular revolver brags about how smooth and light the D.A. trigger pull is on his bone-stock gun, while another individual with the same make and model says it takes a winch to get a shot off. To all appearances the same parts, same springs, but different trigger pulls.

 

[Old Fuff]

Since orangeninja has brought up Taurus, I will point out that their internals are not identical to Smith & Wesson's. Since they incorporate a transfer bar safety the hammer doesn't have to be rebounded and the trigger spring is exactly that. Consequently they sometimes (but not always ) have exceptional double-action trigger pulls after about 1000 dry fire "clicks" to smooth things out.

This is not to say that one product is better or worse then the other, but rather it may be worth looking at both.

Although I have yet to examine one, it is my understanding that Smith & Wesson's new .38 Bodyguard in not an ordinary J-frame, but a whole new design. Supposedly the trigger pulls are much improved. I am not a big fan of current S&W products, but again if you're in the market for a hammerless snubby look at this one too.

 

[denster]

Old Fuff

I rarely find myself disagreeing with you this is just going to have to be one of those times. The standard 18lb rebound slide spring is just not necessasary in a J frame. That by the way is the same weight S&W uses in K, L and N frames where they are moving a lot more metal over a lot more area. I've used 13lb in Js for years and Jerry M couldn't out run the trigger. In any case to each his own.

 

[Old Fuff]

Heck! Next to nobody ever agrees with me, and the few that do are way over the hill...

I've used 13lb in Js for years and Jerry M couldn't out run the trigger.

If it makes you feel any better Jerry's springs aren't stock either.

Still missing my point though: Because of the model I was restricting my comments to J-frame revolvers, used or carried as a weapon. It is generally believed that the only way to get an acceptable (whatever that is) double action trigger pull on one of these guns is to go to lighter springs - especially the rebound slide (trigger) spring.

My point is that you can do that way, but it isn't the only way, and if you can "pull it off (pardon the pun) with stock springs it's better to do so. The stock springs may be considered to be way too heavy, but the idea is that in an emergency if you have to pull the trigger you will hear a BANG! and not a click - no matter what.

 

[denster]

Why at age 65 you say I'm not over the hill. That's the nicest thing anyone has said to me in awhile.