Sad story,what would have you guys done ?

[Ryder]

It's odd we don't see a lot more stories like this. Most people don't think ahead and even when they do "stuff happens". Sometimes it is no fault of your own, circumstances, luck of the draw, fate, whatever you call it. It happens to people, especially young people, and we were all young.

What do you do when you are surrounded? I think over-reacting can be a bad thing. Criminals smell fear and that can bring on a feeding frenzy. Some of you would run them over just for parking behind you? That sounds like justification for them to shoot IMO. I just play calm and confident until I determine their intention.

I feel a story coming on

I took a girl out parking in the woods when I was 20. I've always found that safe and I did it often. One night I was going down a two-track with branches scraping the sides of the car and I came around a curve to find myself blocked by an empty car. People usually park off to the side if exiting the vehicle, or they move along if lights come up behind them. What am I to do? Reversing down the trail at high speed in the dark is impossible. Who am I going to outrun at 2 mph?

Turns out there was actually a line of cars leading up to a small clearing with a fire burning and a medium sized social gathering going on. That was where I'd planned to turn around (and do my parking). These people saw me coming and had surrounded my car before I could even put it in reverse. I shut the motor off and rolled down the window. Greeted them with a large smile and told them what we were doing. Being backlit by the fire I could not tell who or what they were. Smiles from me were forthcoming when they explained that there were the Devils Disciples Motorcycle club and would I like a beer? Heck yeah! I love beer We sat on the hood of the car for a few minutes and listened to some very interesting stories Did I mention I was a quick drinker? I complimented them on their choice of beer and made some excuse about her having to be home by 11 and we backed out.

I was in shock when it happened and relieved when it was over. So why didn't they beat me to a pulp and gang rape the girl? She was the only girl within 5 miles. Could be they are all just a bunch of nice guys but not according to those stories which all revolved around violence. I think it was because I didn't try dictating the scene and they sensed a lack of fear.

In case you're wondering. I carried a Model 19 357 Combat Magnum. I could have (and would have) taken half of them with me in order for the girl to escape if I had to. Too bad this NY story didn't turn out any better, it could have.

 

[joab]

It's odd we don't see a lot more stories like this. Most people don't think ahead and even when they do "stuff happens"

The fact that we don't hear of these type stories often is why we hear of them so much.

95% of the people you meet would rather share a beer with you than spill your blood.
That lures people into a false sense of security and a certain level of disbelief when something bad does start to happen to them.

The story you tell worked out well for you, but would you have gone to that spot if it was a known hangout for a group named The Devil's Deciples"?

 

[para.2]

You're completely wrong. What you're offering here is the same load of nonsense that's been delivered by the SLA Marshall/Grossman/Killology camp for decades. The assumption is that most human beings cannot kill other human beings. Only a small percentage are "hard wired" to kill. The "wolves." The "sheepdogs" are the ones who are also hard wired to kill but turn their abilities to protect the sheep.

There's absolutely no basis for these claims. We are all the same species of Homo sapiens sapiens. We didn't get to the top of the food chain by being "sheep." Every one of us is hard wired to kill. And as history has shown, we're extremely good at it.

The wolves/sheep/sheepdog view of the universe FEEDS DIRECTLY into the theories of the antis. They have long been arguing, in effect, that only the "sheepdogs" should be allowed to have firearms. When you spout this nonsense, you are supporting anti-gun positions.

It's one thing to argue that those who have chosen to disarm themselves are behaving like "sheeple", it's quite another to suggest as you do that they are genetically different from other people and cannot change. I used to be an anti, so I know it can be done.

And I say we disagree. I do not think we are all hard wired to kill. Either through nature or nurture, (an argument I don't care to enter into), some folks, and historically a very small percentage, "march to the sound of the guns" prepared to do something about it. Most cringe, cower or run away, or freeze in disbelief. The basis for my claims is my own observations on battlefields on two continents, and on the streets of my own city. Heraclitus seems to have noticed it some 1500 years ago: "For every one hundred men you send us, Ten should not even be here. Eighty are nothing but targets. Nine of them are real fighters;
We are lucky to have them, they the battle make. Ah, but the one. One of them is a warrior. And he will bring the others back."

I am not feeding anti gun positions, because I am not claiming the sheep should be disarmed. Indeed, I would rather they were armed, then there would be a chance, however slight, that they would be their own salvation.

I am unfamiliar with Grossman, Marshall I know through his other work, primarily on the soldier's load.Perhaps I should modify my position to say not that most cannot kill others, but that theywill not. I have made my own small efforts to change that in those close to me in my family, or my platoon, or wherever I felt I could make a difference, and my spectacular lack of success has led me to resign myself to the fact that there will always be those who knowingly or unknowingly depend on me and others like me for their protection.

I am not a psychologist, so I don't know if the failure is mine in communicating or theirs in being unable to change. I was a soldier, and continue to consider myself a warrior. I accept that responsibility, and move on with my life.

( how terribly have we hijacked this thread?)

 

[Ryder]

would you have gone to that spot if it was a known hangout for a group named The Devil's Deciples"?

Nope, I use the woods to get away from people, not congregate with them.

I don't believe this was a place they frequented. I know there was no fire pit there previously and they weren't there for recreational purposes, it was more of a war conference.

 

[Matthew748]

New York, isn’t that one of the states where you need a permission slip from the chief of police just to buy a handgun? I remember one thread at this site that dealt with the trials and tribulations of a member trying to get some sort of purchase permit. I would say the state is partially to blame for the situation. If you cannot guarantee someone’s safety you have no business limiting their means of defense.

If it were me, I would not exit my vehicle no matter what. I would try and run them down like dogs in the street. If it came to a gun fight, I would do my best to get the leader. The rest would probably run away. If it turned out bad, I have life insurance.

 

[MrTwigg]

I have a few more things to add:

Several folk have commented on how the couple "Chose to be victims." in one way or another and they were in "Condition white."

Well, when you're young and in love (Or merly lust) you tend to not think about things like this. Your head is in the clouds at times like this. They have the right to act this way. Most folks who grow up in locations like Long Island have been brought up being told to do whatever the bad guys say so they don't get hurt.

Problem is: This kind of scum likes to hurt prople.

I have found out first hand you cannot and should not depend upon the police for protection. My own level of awareness has greatly increased based on life experiences.

Some folk here have commented on lynching. Not good. Forget Klingon proverbs about revenge being "A dish best served cold.". Macho posturing and talk (Or actions.) like this serves no good. 'Nuff said.

Talk about sheep and sheepdogs is new to me as I am new to this forum.
I know I am no sheep, I follow no herd. I never thought of myself as a "sheepdog" or protector of society. I have no desire to walk around with a gun looking for potential bad guys to gun down - not that this is the impression I get from those who speak of the sheepdogs in society, but it does make me think.

Perhaps I am a sheepdog after all.

I have intervened on behalf of others before. It's the way I was brought up.
At 6'7" and 300lb. I am a large imposing man and have little trouble intimidating others or getting physical when the need arises. I don't claim to be a bad*ss and I would much rather talk my way out if possible.

Am I "Hardwired" to kill ? I don't think so, but I know I will be able to if the need arises. I served my country and have used firearms up close and personal. Those who know me know I don't like to talk about it.

I have taught both of my little sisters and my wife to shoot rifles and shotguns as well as handguns. All of them are competent with firearms. The one thing I drilled into them is you never simply threaten someone with a gun. It is a tool of the last resort, and not to be afraid to use it if you need to.

We are not "All hardwired to kill" . There are those who will not do so for any reason, there are some who will if they need to and there are a few who will do so willingly be it in defense or for pleasure.

 

[mmike87]

I agree, I would rather die trying to protect my wife rather than let that happen to her.. I hope the inmates of what ever prison they are going to are waiting for them with open arms....

Don't take this the wrong way - I am not doubting you in particular - but I think we ALL on this forum share this viewpoint.

However, unless this has actually happened to you you don't know what you'd do. I'd love to think that I'd go down in a blaze of glory, firing until the slide locks back, defending my family. Certainly, this is my intent, as is the intent of most others on this forum.

I guess what I am saying is that unless you've actually been in a similar situation, you don't KNOW what you'd do - so let's not be too hard on the guy. He's a victim too. Hindsight is always 20/20 and it's easy to judge when the gun is not pointed at YOUR head.

+1 on your prision comment ... they will certainly get a taste of what it's like to be on the receiving end while in prision. Pun intented.

 

[Biker]

Well, I wasn't going to post in this thread, but I feel the need to present a slightly different POV.
I won't comment on the mistakes leading up to the event, they've been covered extensively.
If no opportunities were presented that might enable me to snatch a gun from one of the SOBs, I'd like to think that I would do whatever was necessary in order to ensure our survival. Just get through the thing. After it was over and we were safe, then my turn would come. I'd try to find them. If the cops got them first, I'd just have to wait a bit longer.
Once they got to the joint, the fun would begin. I know people inside and anyone can be touched. Hard.
Having said that, I'm not at all sure that I could control myself in a situation where I had to watch my wife being abused. I might lose it and get us both killed which would lay to rest all hopes of any revenge.
Anger can be a treasured gift.
Biker

 

[joab]

I agree, I would rather die trying to protect my wife rather than let that happen to her.

But would your wife also rather die or have you made that decision for her.?

If you do die defending her virtue, who will be around to help her pick up the pieces when it's over if they don't decide to kill her.?

How would you feel if you lose the fight but are not killed and they kill her to teach you a lesson?

There is always another twist to think about
Which is why I am so fond of saying that there are absolutely no absolutes in life

 

[KriegHund]

Sorry to say, but theres not really much you couldve done in that situation, except perhaps stomp the gas pedle. I suspect thats what i wouldve done. I dont really know.

 

[aufevermike]

I'm sorry to have to say this, but the initial responsibility for this tragedy rests with the folks who parked where they should not have parked. If they'd gone somewhere safer, they wouldn't have been attacked. And yes, I know there are those who will howl that decent folks have the right to park anywhere, anytime, and that criminals should not be allowed to dictate our actions - but this is the real world, OK? Reality sometimes bites!

Oh please???!!!!!! Just maybe that is where the thought they were......in the safer place of anywhere else. It was just a case of being in the right place at the wrong time.

 

[gunsmith]

life long residents of the area

and they felt safe there. typical. I am a native New Yorker and you run into those types everywhere, no matter how bad their neighborhood is it's "their" neighborhood. I lived on 94th and west end, really nice neighborhood but when I lived there a girl was raped in riverside park during a busy lunch hour, yet the idiots in the neighborhood insist it's safe to walk through by themselves.
I allways had some kind of weapon on me, but usually had 3 or 4 friends with me anyhow.as soon as the guys blocked him in he should have started his car and stared moving back and fourth as he was leaning on his horn....
I bet you this guy will still tell you that people should not be allowed to carry guns in NY:banghead:

this is why we need national reciprocity, so I can visit my home town with out being a statistic

 

[mmike87]

I bet you this guy will still tell you that people should not be allowed to carry guns in NY

But, the rapists had guns. How could that be? I can easily see how the antis argue that both the man and woman are "better off" having been unable or unwilling to defend themselves.

Yeah, you're always "better off" when the crime happens to someone else.

 

[LiLWasHere - straight outta Cali]

what would i have done? IRRELEVANT.

For ANYONE to say that they would've done this or that is entitled to 'imagine' what they would have possibly done in this situation, but the fact of the matter is that no one was in the male victim's shoes and to say that he should have done more is NOT fair. HE'S ALREADY A VICTIM therefore bashing him or critcizing him doesn't make YOU a superman or any better than he. NOT ONE person who has left feedback knows how or what this man felt, thought, or experienced. We do not know his upbringing or what kind of person he may be. Some people believe that violence is not the answer/will only make things worse or that two wrongs don't make a right. Maybe, just maybe he was roughed up and pistol whipped to the point that he was incapable to make ANY decision - afterall THOSE WERE THEIR INTENTIONS. A lot of times if you wanna win you will out-smart your opponent, be a step ahead of them, well sorry if the guy couldn't out-psycho these sick ****. Whatever he DID or DID NOT do, they both came out alive and it's bad enough they endured the ordeal but it would have been a double whammi for her if she'd of lost him as well.

Myself? I like to think that I would have died trying. BUT THAT'S ME. Had I survived the situation just the same as these victims (or not), well let's just say that there are "enough people who love me" on the streets AND behind walls that justice and revenge would be served on a silver platter to these sick ****s - but then again, THAT'S ME.

 

[carterbeauford]

indeed...

 

[perpster]

About 20 years ago some mutts from Crooklyn went to a diner on a main road in Nassau County (NY suburb). Diner was close to a main intersection and alongside entrance to a major highway. It had mirrored windows (from the outside you couldn't see in). 3 or 4 mutts IIRC, armed with guns. They did similar crime: robbed patrons, forced patrons into sex acts, etc. They terrorized the patrons for some time before leaving. IIRC they shot some people but none fatal. They were eventually caught and did prison time (but I think they are out now--where were they on 2/14/07?).

Nice to see that NY's "toughest gun laws in the nation" are so effective.

 

[arthurcw]

Oh please???!!!!!! Just maybe that is where the thought they were......in the safer place of anywhere else. It was just a case of being in the right place at the wrong time.

In a parked car? In a secluded area? At Oh Dark Thirty? Unarmed? Unaware of their surroundings?

I don’t care if you are in Shangri-La. You are doing something beyond stupid.

The bad guys are the bad guys. They should be punished and sent to prison. I’m sure they will be the victims of several violent acts (possibly similar to the ones they perpetrated). They screwed up and will have to live with the consequences.

So did the victims in the car. I'm not saying they are guilty or that they even come anywhere near comparing to the criminals. But they screwed up and will have to live with the consequences. It’s not right, but it is reality. We can argue the “IFs” and “Buts” but at the end of the day; when you do something dumb, even unintentionally, you put yourself at risk.

Now before you get unhinged at these comments please ask yourself, “Would I have come unglued if I found that my 21 year old kid had put him/her-self in danger like this?” I would. I would let them know in the STRONGEST OF TERMS that what they did was totally moronic. You tell a kid to look both ways before crossing the street. There is nothing anathema about telling them to watch where they go and who they hang out with.

Life has consequences. They are rarely fair or just, but they are usually foreseeable.

What would I have done in the situation?

At 21 I’m not sure I would have fared much better than the victims. But I’m meaner and more apt to not care what people think of me now. I much more likely to 1) not even go to a spot like that, 2) be armed, 3) be aware at all times (which is why I would not go to a secluded place like that. How could you even enjoy It?), 4) fight like hell, and 5) not care about my own safety. I hope I’d have 3 wounded goblins running for their car because the other option would be me and/or the Mrs. dead.

 

[hankdatank1362]

I could see a pissed off father with a underfolder AK in the Courtroom.

"Yes they deserved to die, and I hope they burn in Hell" a la Samuel L. Jackson.

 

[BADUNAME13]

If the car is on... hit the gas.

If I am parked and sitting in my car... I have a pistol within ~6 inches of my hand.

When I am out of the car and walking with a young lady I try to keep her on my Left so my gun hand is free.

If I cannot I have my BUG acessable weak hand.

If nothing else taking off your clothing would give you a chance to draw a pistol.

I try not to go where I cannot take a gun. (I mean FANATICALLY)

 

[psychophipps]

Man, those people were hosed. It's all nice and well to armchair quarterback but THR members/CCWers/martial arts students in general are the top 5% (probably very much highballed, btw) of "Don't be messing now" in this country. You stick some random in a situation like that and they did the right thing 100%. It's Ok to go for it if you're trained but as an untrained idiot?

I feel sorry for them,
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

 

[Eyesac]

.

 

[Darkness]

I am quite frankly amazed at the people who de-escalate things by insinuating that the victims somehow "asked" to be victims, and were therefore partly at fault. As others have said, the fault lies entirely with the attackers. Can any of you say that if you were out with your CCW, late at night, in a grocery shop parking lot, and an old lady walks past you counting her money, flashing her bills, with nobody else around, that suddenly you would be provoked into robbing her, and possibly worse? That the mere presence of a possible victim would over-ride your own morals and conscience, causing you to behave in an unlawful manner? No? Well, let's take the "she was asking for it" out of the equation, then.

Also, for you arm-chair theorists out there, have you ever had a spouse or relative raped? Ever? I am not talking about someone's friend of a friend who lives in another city getting raped. I am talking about someone close to you. My wife was raped when she was 16 years old. Yeah, 16. And I'll tell you what, it was a whole lot more than just her virtue that was taken. I didn't meet her til almost 13 years after the incident, and she still carries emotional and psychological scars. Yes, I would do everything in my power to prevent something like that from ever happening again, to her or to anyone else.

It's not the victim's fault ever! They might not have done the wisest thing, but they are in no way responsible for what happened to them.

Those of you who so cavalierly blame the victims for even one iota of the event have no idea of what you speak. I can confidently say that I doubt any of you, upon hearing law enforcement say to you "I'm so sorry, but your mother was raped by a gang of street thugs earlier this evening" would turn back to your tvs and say "eh, I am sure she was asking for it."

The individuals who commited this crime should have a fair trial, followed by a fair execution.

 

[joab]

I don't believe that anyone here has said that the girl was asking for it, but personal safety is your personal responsibility.
If you put yourself in a position to be defenseless and away from the herd then you willingly albeit ignorantly pit yourself at risk of the all to commonly known predation that thrives in out society.

And yes I have known two women close to me that were raped, during the period that I was involved in their life.
One willfully put herself in a dangerous position, the other's mother did.

To try to compare the response of a normal member of society to a willful victim with the response from someone with criminal disposition to the same stimuli is a ridiculously simplistic and invalid analogy.

 

[carebear]

You do yourself and the victim a disservice by equating "acknowledging poor choices" with "blaming the victim".

If people do not acknowledge that they could have made different choices, perhaps wiser or more cautious ones, they don't learn. A child is not to "blame" if he gets hit in the head while playing by the baseball diamond, but if he hadn't chosen to play there, or had paid attention, he might not have been hit at all. Next time he won't make those foreseeable mistakes.

Unfortunately sometimes criminal victimization is a very foreseeable consequence of making poor choices. In fact it is only by acknowledging and considering those likely negative consequences that helps people make not make the poor choices in the first place.

For example:

It is common knowledge drunk people are targeted for crime more than sober ones.

Thus, you do, or should, consider the consequences of drinking to excess in a strange place without friends around and the possibility that, through no fault of your own it is more likely you may be victimized in that more vulnerable state. If you don't consider that very foreseeable likelyhood, or do consider it, and choose to ignore it, you are not to blame if victimization occurs but you do have to acknowledge your increased responsibility for it occuring, as you willingly contributed to creating the situation where it was more likely to occur.

In that case, you drank yourself, by choice, into becoming a more attractive target than you would have been sober and aware of your surroundings. You are not at fault, but you could have made better choices and lowered your risks. Hopefully you recognize that fact and make better choices in the future.

In this case, with attacks on people in isolated incidents not uncommon, and knowing what can happen to young women thus attacked, and knowing that he possessed neither the training, tools or awareness to deal with a situation if it did occur, that young man made a poor choice of activities and that directly led to their victimization. If they had stayed home in their living room, the likelyhood of them being similarly attacked, while not zero, would have been significantly reduced. He made his choices and suffered the not unforeseeable consequences. If he had made different choices (be armed, be more aware, not go somewhere so isolated etc. etc.) the situation could not have occurred in the exact same way and the likelyhood of it ending as badly is almost certainly lower.

That isn't "blaming", that's just acknowledging fact and pointing out choices that could or should have been made better.

The attacker is still the one to blame, but we don't get a free pass as victims if we made it easier for them.

 

[Slappy McGee]

I'm hesitant to post to this thread as a noob, but I'll throw in my twopence.

I think the only mistake that was made here was being in a place (right or wrong) at the wrong time. There's a balance somewhere between locking yourself in a padded room and never leaving since the world is sometimes an ugly and dangerous place, and painting yourself white and walking through South Central LA with a suit made of $100 bills that is difficult to define sometimes, and we'll never solve that here.

Looking at the situation, you're in a car at 1:30am, likely tired, and probably full of that romantic feeling of being the only two people in the world, so you probably barely notice the car pulling behind you until you see the lights flash. I call BS on anyone that is going to start firing on someone that steps out of a car behind them, unless they are waving guns in the air and shouting threats. Otherwise there are plenty of trial lawyers that are waiting for you to start shooting. The other car could be there to get romantic, looking for directions, or be and angry resident who has appointment themselves to patrol makeout point; you have no way of knowing.

So by the time you notice the car, you have maybe 4-8 seconds before there are men with guns on each side of the car (as per the article). I don't care what calibre or what training you've had, you have MAYBE a 3% chance of seeing the weapons and registering the threat, drawing your weapon and racking the slide (if applicable) incapacitating one, roatating your weapon 180 degrees and incapicitating the other without you or your GF/wife being wounded or killed. Car doors generally don't stop bullets, and you have to fire at least two shots (probably four) in completely opposite directions before the BGs, both aiming at your or your GF before the baddies fire one. I would be skeptical that you could do this even with your gun pointed at the door when the BGs arrive on either side of the car.

The rest of the time again, you have two armed BGs likely some distance apart pointing a weapon at you and you are totally unarmed (as in naked). Even if you are Bruce Lee and a 9th degree black belt in double-secret ninja fighting, you probably have at least 4-5' of ground to cover to get to one armed guy, and each of them have what, maybe 2" of "ground" to cover to squeeze a trigger? Oh yeah, and there's a third BG. And I almost forgot, you were previously "stomped" and likely not at 100%. All this time you have no way of knowing what's coming next.

Could you make a futile gesture and go out in a blaze of glory? Sure, but more than likely you both end up dead. I would say your chances of coming out alive and with everyone's honor intact are less than .001%. I also think its very presumptuous to assume your GF would want to lose her life versus her "honor," or assume that in your own circumstances. I've never known anyone personally who has dealt with rape, but people have survived immensely traumatic events (rape, holocaust, genocide, etc) and gone on to lead full lives. I'm sure these two will be scarred for life, but would you give up everything you've experienced since your 20's for some vague notion of "honor?"

Aside from not being there in the first place, or stomping the gas as soon as the BGs came out of their car, before you even knew they had weapons, I'm not sure what could have been done, and I feel very sorry for those two.