Jurist
Member
What is the difference between a Ithaca stakeout and a Taurus Judge?.
Sawed off shotguns?
- Thread starter Jurist
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Chopdoktor
Member
One has rifling, one does not. The Judge is a 45lc revolver that just happens to chamber .410 shells, making it primarily a handgun. The Ithaca is just a shotgun, making it subject to shotgun rules. The Ithaca isn't a sawed off, either, unless you make it that way. Naturally, anything under 18" on a shotgun is NFA tax stamp territory.
Chopdoktor
Member
Additionally, if you want a better answer, ask a more specific question 
Like:"What is the difference between 'gun-x' and 'gun-y' in regards to...(insert query here)?"
Like:"What is the difference between 'gun-x' and 'gun-y' in regards to...(insert query here)?"
From the factory pistol-grip only shotguns are not "shotguns". Shotguns are made or remade, designed or re-designed to be fired from the shoulder. It might be that these aren't "shotguns" if it has a smooth bore.
There was a big to do a while back when the ATF made some statements on PGO shotguns like the mossberg cruisers. People in the general public freaked out that they were going to be considered destructive devises or somehow otherwise illegal
Those guns are a Title 1 "Other" firearm (note, not AOW) that fires shotgun shells. Nothing more. They are legal to own.
Since they are not shotguns, there is arguably no law requiring them have a barrel length of 18" or more. Those PGO shotguns have never been shotguns according to the federal definition of "shotgun" in the GCA of '68. They've always been Title 1 "other firearms."
Chopdoktor
Member
Good point, Girodin. I guess the 26" overall length requirement would still apply to keep it from being an AOW? Or does that factor in?
Carl N. Brown
Member
The Taurus Judge is a revolver (conventional handgun) in .45LC and .410, with rifled barrel, sold under federal and state laws that apply to handguns. It is a Title I (Gun Control Act 1968) handgun. (There was a previous .45LC/.410 revolver made as Thunder Five and marketed by Top Notch Guns in Tennessee, which was also accepted by ATF as a .45LC revolver capable of firing .410.)
The Ithaca stakeout is a pistol grip only shotgun with 13.5" barrel, 22.5" overall, designed to fire shotgun shells, and is a NFA firearm AOW subject to a $5 federal registration tax. It is a Title II (National Firearms Act 1934) any other weapon.
A Mossberg Cruiser, from the factory with pistol grip only, 18.5" barrel, 28.75" overall, designed to fire shotgun shells, is a GCA "other firearm" not subject to federal registration tax but must not be altered to less than 26" overall to maintain Title I status (according last ATF letter I saw posted).
The Title I (GCA) "other firearm" not a "handgun" but not a "long gun" is ambiguous and may be subject to future redefinition by ATF.
The Ithaca stakeout is a pistol grip only shotgun with 13.5" barrel, 22.5" overall, designed to fire shotgun shells, and is a NFA firearm AOW subject to a $5 federal registration tax. It is a Title II (National Firearms Act 1934) any other weapon.
A Mossberg Cruiser, from the factory with pistol grip only, 18.5" barrel, 28.75" overall, designed to fire shotgun shells, is a GCA "other firearm" not subject to federal registration tax but must not be altered to less than 26" overall to maintain Title I status (according last ATF letter I saw posted).
The Title I (GCA) "other firearm" not a "handgun" but not a "long gun" is ambiguous and may be subject to future redefinition by ATF.
Carl N. Brown
Member
A "sawed off" shotgun would be a "long gun" shotgun shortened with barrel length under 18" or overall length less than 26". Either way (barrel under 18" or overall under 26") is an NFA SBS (short barrel shotgun) subject to $200 registration tax.*
A "long gun" shotgun may be shortened to as short as barrel length 18" and overall 26" and still remaina Title I (GCA) "long gun" shotgun.
A Mossberg 500 sold with buttstock and accessory pistol grip and 18.5" barrel is a "long gun" shotgun.
A Mossberg 500 Cruiser sold with pistol grip only and 18.5" barrel is a "other firearm" shotgun.
I don't make these rules up; I just try to keep track of them. (Notice I did not claim to make sense of them.)
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*Yes, a shortened shotgun with an 18+" barrel but less than 26" overall is an SBS (short barrel shotgun).
A "long gun" shotgun may be shortened to as short as barrel length 18" and overall 26" and still remaina Title I (GCA) "long gun" shotgun.
A Mossberg 500 sold with buttstock and accessory pistol grip and 18.5" barrel is a "long gun" shotgun.
A Mossberg 500 Cruiser sold with pistol grip only and 18.5" barrel is a "other firearm" shotgun.
I don't make these rules up; I just try to keep track of them. (Notice I did not claim to make sense of them.)
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*Yes, a shortened shotgun with an 18+" barrel but less than 26" overall is an SBS (short barrel shotgun).
nalioth
Member
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Moving this one from Shotguns to NFA, since the question seems to hinge on legal definitions...
lpl
lpl
CoRoMo
Member
The law actually reads...
So... the questions are...
- How does the NFA define the phrase "intended to be fired from the shoulder"?
- Who gets to state the intentions of the design?
- How does the NFA define a 'shoulder stock'? Sometimes a bit of shaped wire constitutes a shoulder stock, but a buffer tube does not.
- Where is the line that differentiates the type of stock you find on a Mare's Leg, with one that is "intended to be fired from the shoulder"?
dogtown tom
Member
ATF is the Federal agency empowered to regulate commerce in firearms. Where the actual law does not clearly "define", the ATF can issue determinations/rulings/interpretations of the NFA'34 and GCA'68 that have the full force of law.
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