School me on custom bolt rifles

[Stevenvalleyky]

I have always wanted to build a custom bolt gun that can be used for treestand hunting as well as learning to ring steel at 1000 yards if I ever get to go somewhere I can shoot that far. Ive been looking at several of defiance, big horn, impact precision, kelbly, etc. If I was to get one that uses prefits, wouldnt I only need to screw the barrel on and set the headspace with go and no go guages then drop it into a chassis or a stock? Ive pillar bedded a couple that I put into new aftermarket stocks but never used any with a chassis.
It seems most of those actions use prefits but I keep seeing guys talking about their rifle builder or gunsmith so Im a little confused. If I could screw the barrel onto the action and set the headspace myself then drop the barreled action into a chassis or stock myself, why would I need a gunsmith? Is the trigger with a hanger difficult to install?
I feel like Im missing something so I probably am.

 

[horsemen61]

Ttrl

 

[Varminterror]

Ive been looking at several of defiance, big horn, impact precision, kelbly, etc. If I was to get one that uses prefits, wouldnt I only need to screw the barrel on and set the headspace with go and no go guages

With any of these actions, which take true shouldered pre-fits, you do not set the headspace in any way. Savage style nutted barrels require a gauge to SET the headspace by screwing the barrel into the action until it touches the gauge, then locking in place with the barrel nut, but the Defiance Ruckus & Tenacity, Lone Peak Fusion, Impact 737R, Bighorn TL3, Bat Machine, Seekins Havak, American Rifle Company Nucleus, Coup de Grace, Archimedes, etc, Kelby Nanook, Atlas, & Prometheus, Aero Solus, and I'm sure a few others I'm forgetting all take shouldered prefits, meaning the bolt and actions are machined within tolerances such the barrels can be made anywhere in the world and thread up perfectly to the action within tolerance for chamber headspace. So there's no way for you to set the headspace - just screw it in like a lightbulb, torque to spec, and party on.

Using a gunsmith to make your barrels may be more reliable than buying a barrel off of the shelf from some bulk barrelsmith - for example, I have barrels for my Seekins Havak made by a local smith, even though I could order pre-fits online for that rifle, same guy who makes my barrels for a couple other firearms, but I order Proof Research pre-fits for my Defiance Ruckus. I know the two dudes who spin barrels for me will be more likely to yield smaller groups than the barrels I get from the larger commercial gunsmiths, but I also know the few commercial barrelsmiths I've used can all turn out really, really small groups too. I know exactly what reamer my smith is going to use for my barrels, so I get the same exact chamber every time - down to the 1/2 thou - but I can't expect that consistency from the commercial barrel houses. I know I will spend a bit more to get a blank and have it turned by my precision smiths too, but I can text them, drive to their house for a beer, pick my barrels up at a match, drop off actions at their shop, whatever I need, and I know exactly who is running the lathe... So it's really up to you as the consumer to pick which you prefer.

But in 2024 and beyond, it's absolutely foolish to build a rifle on any action which doesn't come headspace controlled to accept pre-fit barrels. Give yourself the options, and don't settle for less.

If I were building a hunting + long range rifle, I'd look hard at the Impact NBK, the Defiance AnTi, and the Lone Peak Fusion Titanium, and I'd probably personally end in a coin flip between the NBK and the Fusion Ti.

One other thing to consider - if you're building a chassis rifle which takes prefit barrels - you have the LUXURY of choosing to have chassis weights and a heavy steel barrel for an ideal cartridge for shooting 1,000 yards, then have a carbon fiber barrel and remove the chassis weights, maybe even change bolt heads to utilize a magnum bolt face to take the same scope, action, trigger, and chassis on any hunt you could imagine. Shoot a 6 Dasher for 1,000yrd steel banging, then when you decide to go afield after elk, cut 10lbs off of the rifle and swap to a 6.5 PRC and go up mountain with fire in your fists. Almost like having 2 rifles in one, with little to no compromise in performance between them for their respective applications.

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

With any of these actions, which take true shouldered pre-fits, you do not set the headspace in any way. Savage style nutted barrels require a gauge to SET the headspace by screwing the barrel into the action until it touches the gauge, then locking in place with the barrel nut, but the Defiance Ruckus & Tenacity, Lone Peak Fusion, Impact 737R, Bighorn TL3, Bat Machine, Seekins Havak, American Rifle Company Nucleus, Coup de Grace, Archimedes, etc, Kelby Nanook, Atlas, & Prometheus, Aero Solus, and I'm sure a few others I'm forgetting all take shouldered prefits, meaning the bolt and actions are machined within tolerances such the barrels can be made anywhere in the world and thread up perfectly to the action within tolerance for chamber headspace. So there's no way for you to set the headspace - just screw it in like a lightbulb, torque to spec, and party on.

Using a gunsmith to make your barrels may be more reliable than buying a barrel off of the shelf from some bulk barrelsmith - for example, I have barrels for my Seekins Havak made by a local smith, even though I could order pre-fits online for that rifle, same guy who makes my barrels for a couple other firearms, but I order Proof Research pre-fits for my Defiance Ruckus. I know the two dudes who spin barrels for me will be more likely to yield smaller groups than the barrels I get from the larger commercial gunsmiths, but I also know the few commercial barrelsmiths I've used can all turn out really, really small groups too. I know exactly what reamer my smith is going to use for my barrels, so I get the same exact chamber every time - down to the 1/2 thou - but I can't expect that consistency from the commercial barrel houses. I know I will spend a bit more to get a blank and have it turned by my precision smiths too, but I can text them, drive to their house for a beer, pick my barrels up at a match, drop off actions at their shop, whatever I need, and I know exactly who is running the lathe... So it's really up to you as the consumer to pick which you prefer.

But in 2024 and beyond, it's absolutely foolish to build a rifle on any action which doesn't come headspace controlled to accept pre-fit barrels. Give yourself the options, and don't settle for less.

If I were building a hunting + long range rifle, I'd look hard at the Impact NBK, the Defiance AnTi, and the Lone Peak Fusion Titanium, and I'd probably personally end in a coin flip between the NBK and the Fusion Ti.

One other thing to consider - if you're building a chassis rifle which takes prefit barrels - you have the LUXURY of choosing to have chassis weights and a heavy steel barrel for an ideal cartridge for shooting 1,000 yards, then have a carbon fiber barrel and remove the chassis weights, maybe even change bolt heads to utilize a magnum bolt face to take the same scope, action, trigger, and chassis on any hunt you could imagine. Shoot a 6 Dasher for 1,000yrd steel banging, then when you decide to go afield after elk, cut 10lbs off of the rifle and swap to a 6.5 PRC and go up mountain with fire in your fists. Almost like having 2 rifles in one, with little to no compromise in performance between them for their respective applications.

Thank you, very informative. There were only 2 gunsmiths I knew about near where I live and 1 of them died recently. Thats sad considering I live in a relatively big city of Louisville KY. Lack of reputable gunsmiths to do this kind of work was the reason I was considering either a savage style with the barrel nut or the shouldered prefit was because of the lack of people around here that could do more traditional action and barrel work. Sounds like I could expect to get a fairly accurate rifle with ordering 1 of the 700 rem footprint actions you listed above and buying a good commercial barrel although it may not be as precise as getting one spun locally.
I also have thought about maybe just ordering a Howa1500 barreled action and throwing it in a chassis or stock. Ive always been partial to the traditional blue and walnut look so I would likely want to throw one of those in a boyds. Appreciate the input Varminterror

 

[Txhillbilly]

I've got 4 custom action's that take pre-fit barrel's. A Shilen DGR, and 3 American Rifle Co. - Nucleus, Nucleus 2.0, & an Archimedes. I run barrel nut's on 3 of them, and have one shouldered pre-fit barrel on another. Accuracy difference is zero between them, it's only cosmetic different with a barrel nut. Cost wise, using a barrel nut will save you a few hundred $$$ over a shouldered barrel in most cases. I run Shilen and X-Caliber barrel's with barrel nut's, and have a Rock Creek shouldered barrel from PVA, The cost difference is $300 - $400 on the barrel nut barrel's to $700+ for the shouldered barrel. The shouldered barrel doesn't shoot any better!

As far as buying a pre-fit and having a smith doing a blank for you, that's a personal choice. I've always bought pre-fit barrels, and the worst shooting pre-fit barrel I've ever had is a cheap E.R. Shaw 7mm-08 barrel. It still shoot's in the 0.6" range. The barrel's on my custom action's have all shot extremely well with my loads. Smallest 5 shot group is a .133".
I'm a recreational shooter, not a competitor. If I was trying to set records, maybe I'd waste the money on a custom smithed barrel, but I'm not trying to set records.

Chassis / Stocks are a personal choice, but most chassis can be a PIA for a hunting rifle. I have a KRG Whiskey 3 chassis that is great to shoot long range with, but I hate it for hunting use, the ergonomics just don't work for me. I have two KRG Bravo chassis that I use for everything, they are great. I also have a Woox Exactus chassis that I like for precision shooting and hunting.
There are so many options when it comes to chassis and stocks, you just need to figure out what will work for you. There are some great trigger's out today, I run Trigger Tech trigger's in all of mine.

 

[Varminterror]

I also have thought about maybe just ordering a Howa1500 barreled action and throwing it in a chassis or stock.

Don’t. You’ll end up with a rifle which only does what would do any rifle you could buy on a shelf, and ultimately be let down by the experience.

The cost difference is $300 - $400 on the barrel nut barrel's to $700+ for the shouldered barrel.

I pay $450 for shouldered prefits from Proof Research.

(And you couldn’t give me a PVA cut barrel, nor a Rock Creek, let alone a Rock Creek cut by PVA).

 

[Txhillbilly]

Don’t. You’ll end up with a rifle which only does what would do any rifle you could buy on a shelf, and ultimately be let down by the experience.



I pay $450 for shouldered prefits from Proof Research.

(And you couldn’t give me a PVA cut barrel, nor a Rock Creek, let alone a Rock Creek cut by PVA).

Varminterror, I've been very happy with Rock Creek cut rifling barrel's. Got one from BugHoles, and the other from PVA, both shoot very good. I have Bartlein, Krieger, and other top brands of barrel's on gun's, They really don't shoot any better!
Everyone has their favorite brand, I've tried most of them. The only barrel's that have disappointed me were AR15 barrel's from AR Performance, and Seekins.
I've never tried Proof Research.

 

[Varminterror]

The only barrel's that have disappointed me were AR15 barrel's from AR Performance, and Seekins.

Seekins uses Rock Creek barrels.

 

[InTheSwamp]

With any of these actions, which take true shouldered pre-fits, you do not set the headspace in any way. Savage style nutted barrels require a gauge to SET the headspace by screwing the barrel into the action until it touches the gauge, then locking in place with the barrel nut, but the Defiance Ruckus & Tenacity, Lone Peak Fusion, Impact 737R, Bighorn TL3, Bat Machine, Seekins Havak, American Rifle Company Nucleus, Coup de Grace, Archimedes, etc, Kelby Nanook, Atlas, & Prometheus, Aero Solus, and I'm sure a few others I'm forgetting all take shouldered prefits, meaning the bolt and actions are machined within tolerances such the barrels can be made anywhere in the world and thread up perfectly to the action within tolerance for chamber headspace. So there's no way for you to set the headspace - just screw it in like a lightbulb, torque to spec, and party on.

Using a gunsmith to make your barrels may be more reliable than buying a barrel off of the shelf from some bulk barrelsmith - for example, I have barrels for my Seekins Havak made by a local smith, even though I could order pre-fits online for that rifle, same guy who makes my barrels for a couple other firearms, but I order Proof Research pre-fits for my Defiance Ruckus. I know the two dudes who spin barrels for me will be more likely to yield smaller groups than the barrels I get from the larger commercial gunsmiths, but I also know the few commercial barrelsmiths I've used can all turn out really, really small groups too. I know exactly what reamer my smith is going to use for my barrels, so I get the same exact chamber every time - down to the 1/2 thou - but I can't expect that consistency from the commercial barrel houses. I know I will spend a bit more to get a blank and have it turned by my precision smiths too, but I can text them, drive to their house for a beer, pick my barrels up at a match, drop off actions at their shop, whatever I need, and I know exactly who is running the lathe... So it's really up to you as the consumer to pick which you prefer.

But in 2024 and beyond, it's absolutely foolish to build a rifle on any action which doesn't come headspace controlled to accept pre-fit barrels. Give yourself the options, and don't settle for less.

If I were building a hunting + long range rifle, I'd look hard at the Impact NBK, the Defiance AnTi, and the Lone Peak Fusion Titanium, and I'd probably personally end in a coin flip between the NBK and the Fusion Ti.

One other thing to consider - if you're building a chassis rifle which takes prefit barrels - you have the LUXURY of choosing to have chassis weights and a heavy steel barrel for an ideal cartridge for shooting 1,000 yards, then have a carbon fiber barrel and remove the chassis weights, maybe even change bolt heads to utilize a magnum bolt face to take the same scope, action, trigger, and chassis on any hunt you could imagine. Shoot a 6 Dasher for 1,000yrd steel banging, then when you decide to go afield after elk, cut 10lbs off of the rifle and swap to a 6.5 PRC and go up mountain with fire in your fists. Almost like having 2 rifles in one, with little to no compromise in performance between them for their respective applications.

Nice info - Thanks
Whenever I build my first custom, I might go with a Fuzion Ti and pre-fit Proof. A light Manners will complete the combo.

 

[Varminterror]

I might go with a Fuzion Ti and pre-fit Proof. A light Manners will complete the combo.

A Fusion Ti with a CF Proof (or Bartlein) dropped into a Manners EH1 or LRH would make a FANTASTIC lightweight hunting rifle. Stick a Nightforce NX8 2.5-20x or Leupold Mk5HD on top, and it'll do amazing things.

 

[InTheSwamp]

A Fusion Ti with a CF Proof (or Bartlein) dropped into a Manners EH1 or LRH would make a FANTASTIC lightweight hunting rifle. Stick a Nightforce NX8 2.5-20x or Leupold Mk5HD on top, and it'll do amazing things.

Yeah, light is top priority. I do hunt in the swamp from tree stands, sometimes walking 2-300 yards (through mud and brushes) from the road to get there.

 

[Anchorite]

Lots of good anecdotal advice already offered. For pure hunting, my advice is find a used Winchester, Remington or Ruger and send to Pac Nor. They will rebarrel and blueprint your action. Very affordable. IMO you don’t need to spend thousands on an action (Stiller, Borden, Kelby, Pierce, etc.) for a hunting rifle. Save that money for components to load and quality optics. After all, it’s not how expensive your rifle is, it’s how well you can shoot it and you can’t buy practice.
The guys that fish where I live don’t catch more fish just because they have 4 Yamaha 450s hanging off the transom…..

For the record, I am not a fan of the Savage nut system, but there are those who love it. Sure, it works, but it’s just not my cup of tea. YMMV.

 

[InTheSwamp]

IMO you don’t need to spend

Need? On a gun forum?

 

[Anchorite]

Need? On a gun forum?

Darn good point … what was I thinking ….

 

[Okie_Poke]

Dropping in here to find this later. Good discussion. Thank you.

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

Don’t. You’ll end up with a rifle which only does what would do any rifle you could buy on a shelf, and ultimately be let down by the experience.



I pay $450 for shouldered prefits from Proof Research.

(And you couldn’t give me a PVA cut barrel, nor a Rock Creek, let alone a Rock Creek cut by PVA).

I cant lie, if I could have everything like I wanted, I would have a pre 64 Model 70 that I could shoot a mile. Im very much into the look of classic deer rifles. But I also realize that if I want real precision, Ill probably have to use a chassis system. Im gonna try to find the shouldered prefits from Proof for $450 but Ive never seen them that cheap.
Anyone ever tried the preferred barrels prefits? I also have a first gen Ruger American 308 that was extremely accurate until I surpassed 5000-6000 rounds. Now it shoots 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards so a prefit for that is also something I am looking for.

 

[Varminterror]

I also realize that if I want real precision, Ill probably have to use a chassis system.

Don't be disheartened by thinking you're stuck with a chassis, because this is an incorrect assumption. There is NO competition format where stocks and chassis rifles compete where chassis' dominate over stocks. The most accurate shoulder fired rifles in the world are built in stocks, in every form of competition. Chassis rifles don't even keep up well enough to play in BR or F-class, and really don't perform well enough to keep up. There are a few guys shooting chassis' in ELR competition, but in general, the Manners LRT and the McMillan stocks dominate the top of the field. Chassis rifles tend to only have a shot in the game in PRS, but match data kinda shows that stocks still place more often in the top 10 than the chassis - not really supporting that you need a chassis to achieve "real precision."

My PRS match rifles are all stocks. I have two Manners and a McMillan, and just got a Foundation going. I've had a few chassis (MPA BA, KRG Bravo, MDT LSS and LSS-XL, and an XLR Envy), but they're just not the feel and driving experience I want. Definitely not for a benchrest focused rifle. I MIGHT put my Seekins action into an MPA BA again this season, but ONLY because I found a killer deal on it and want to change its balance a bit... but again, that's for PRS, and the McMillan stock on it isn't actually ideal for what I'm asking it to do.

Im gonna try to find the shouldered prefits from Proof for $450 but Ive never seen them that cheap.

If you're mil/LEO/Instructor/Pro, that's your pricing.

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

Don't be disheartened by thinking you're stuck with a chassis, because this is an incorrect assumption. There is NO competition format where stocks and chassis rifles compete where chassis' dominate over stocks. The most accurate shoulder fired rifles in the world are built in stocks, in every form of competition. Chassis rifles don't even keep up well enough to play in BR or F-class, and really don't perform well enough to keep up. There are a few guys shooting chassis' in ELR competition, but in general, the Manners LRT and the McMillan stocks dominate the top of the field. Chassis rifles tend to only have a shot in the game in PRS, but match data kinda shows that stocks still place more often in the top 10 than the chassis - not really supporting that you need a chassis to achieve "real precision."

My PRS match rifles are all stocks. I have two Manners and a McMillan, and just got a Foundation going. I've had a few chassis (MPA BA, KRG Bravo, MDT LSS and LSS-XL, and an XLR Envy), but they're just not the feel and driving experience I want. Definitely not for a benchrest focused rifle. I MIGHT put my Seekins action into an MPA BA again this season, but ONLY because I found a killer deal on it and want to change its balance a bit... but again, that's for PRS, and the McMillan stock on it isn't actually ideal for what I'm asking it to do.



If you're mil/LEO/Instructor/Pro, that's your pricing.

Appreciate your input. I assumed since using a chassis would eliminate the need to bed the action that a chassis would naturally lead to greater accuracy potential. You know what they say about assuming.

 

[Varminterror]

find a used Winchester, Remington or Ruger and send to Pac Nor. They will rebarrel and blueprint your action. Very affordable.

25-30yrs ago, this was still great advice. That's how I built my first LR rifles too. Today, eh... not really, and not a chance in hell I'd waste my money doing it. It's really not "very affordable" any more for what you're getting. Pacnor is $300 now to blueprint, and you're just getting truing, not bushing the firing pin, not sleeving and truing the raceways, JUST truing the bolt, lug, and action face. So you buy a USED Rem 700 for $500, put $300 into blueprinting, and it's still just a $500 remington... Or, you can get a Defiance Tenacity for $990 which was true and tight when it was born, with an integral recoil lug and which accepts prefit barrels... Bighorn Origin for $900... Current production Rem 700 BDL's are $950-1100, plus that $300 to blue print them... Times have changed a LOT in the last couple of decades... Things were very different when we could buy a Rem 700 ADL for $250, sell the barrel and stock for $100, and then have it blueprinted for $150... But those days are long gone. It was even just maybe ~10yrs ago we could get blueprinted Rem 700 actions from PTG for ~$450 (when Defiance Tenacities were $800 and Origins were $750), but today, those Blueprinted Rem's are $750+... We don't save any money worth mentioning by starting with a sloppy factory action and blue printing it... we just end up with an expensive sloppy action with 3 parallel faces…

I wouldn't mess with a Winchester 70 at ALL for a long range rifle which would be using up barrels. A hunting rifle which won't ever burn out barrels? Sure. But that extractor cut and non-regulated headspace is a pain in the butt. They're not really a high precision action among the field these days anyway, and that extractor cut ensures they ALWAYS have to have a smith install them, which adds time and cost. There are far better options to do this job than the Win 70 - if a guy wants to build an M70 out of nostalgia, great, but when it comes to "build a semi-custom long range rifle on the cheap," a Win 70 is one of the worst roads to choose.

 

[Varminterror]

Appreciate your input. I assumed since using a chassis would eliminate the need to bed the action that a chassis would naturally lead to greater accuracy potential. You know what they say about assuming.

Bedding is pretty easy, and it's not expensive to have a smith do it if you really aren't comfortable doing it yourself. Foundation stocks don't need it, my Manners stocks with Mini-chassis' don't need it - and doing it in wood stocks or other composite stocks really isn't so difficult. More about patience to prep appropriately than it is challenging. But no, chassis' don't inherently lead to greater accuracy - and frankly, there are SOME chassis' out there which are actually really detrimental to accuracy, because they really aren't very shootable (cough, cough, Oryx, cough)...

 

[Jim Watson]

I am way behind the times on equipment, but I will say

bolt gun that can be used for tree-stand hunting as well as learning to ring steel at 1000 yards

would not be my first choice. Or fifth.

Target rifles are long and heavy. Too long and heavy for ME to hump in the woods for sure.
Jeff Cooper said of Scout IV, if it were half as accurate as it is, it would still be twice as accurate as necessary. You have to be a real long range specialist to need better than the old Weatherby guarantee of 1.5 MOA with factory hunting ammo.

 

[dfish1247]

By having a custom rifle built, you get what you want, within reason of course.

You really need to know what bullet and cartridge case you want to use and build around that. Depending on the cartridge you’re looking at, you may need a long action for the long bullets needed for 1000yd accuracy. Yup, a short action cartridge in a long action so the magazine doesn’t restrict overall length.

I will warn you, the first time you slide the bolt back, your other rifles will feel like junk, custom actions feel like greased glass. My stolle panda, I can lift the bolt with my pinky.

I can vouch for Kelbly, Defiance Machine(formerly Nesika), and Shilen actions. Brux, Bartlein, and Lilja for barrel blanks. Hart barrels used to be big, but I don’t hear about them anymore.

Look at several smiths and talk to them, you’ll find someone you like and they’ll take care of you. You’re stepping up from Chevrolet to Ferrari, don’t settle.

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

I am way behind the times on equipment, but I will say



would not be my first choice. Or fifth.

Target rifles are long and heavy. Too long and heavy for ME to hump in the woods for sure.
Jeff Cooper said of Scout IV, if it were half as accurate as it is, it would still be twice as accurate as necessary. You have to be a real long range specialist to need better than the old Weatherby guarantee of 1.5 MOA with factory hunting ammo.

I normally would agree but I carry my rifle till I get to a ladder stand then climb up. I carry it about 20 minutes total, 10 to the stand and 10 back to the truck. If I was hunting steeper terrain or walking further I would definitely want a lighter rifle for hunting. Right now I frequently hunt with a heavily modified Ruger American that weighs about 15lbs. After a shoulder issue a few years ago, Im much more recoil sensitive than I use to be so I made my 308 american as heavy as I could by stiffening and loading up the factory stock with a bunch of lead. It worked great as the extra weight really soaks up the recoil to the point that I can shoot it all day pain free. So for most of my current deer hunting, a long and heavy rifle isnt a problem. The bigger problem is that most of my shots at deer are within 50 yards. But I totally agree that long range rifles generally arent great for hunting.

 

[Varminterror]

This rifle weighs 19lbs without the suppressor. My son was 9 when he shot this deer and wrestled 73lbs that season. He carried that rifle 1/2 mile into the blind each morning, and carried it out each evening. He also carries it at PRS matches, and he’s hit targets out to 1200 yards with this rifle - and generally ends up carrying it about a mile over the course of the day.





He also has a magnum boltface bolt for that action, so it can become a 6.5 PRC when he’s a bit older, and we can swap barrels to a carbon fiber Bartlein and haul it up mountain after elk and black bear.

 

[Jim Watson]

Wow, I am further behind the times than I thought. I go back to the Featherweight hunting rifle era.