mrbladedude
Member
Ok so I'm interested in purchasing the Leupold VX 2 in 3-9 X 40 or 50mm. But there's dials, reticles, a CDS option. Can someone shed some light here please? Here are some pics of my confusion.
Scope question
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In a nutshell you have the option of having custom turrets made that will "match" your load and bullet weight. Or you can have a reticle that will aid in hold over and limited ranging. My VX3 has the Boone and Crockett reticle which allows for ranging and holdover for both magnum and non magnum calibers. It's a bit of a pain as it only works on a certain magnification setting according to Leopold but I've played around with it on my 375 H&H and find that it works pretty dang well across the range from 2.5 to 8x.
Leopold should have information on both of the options on their site, if not they have pretty good customer service should you need to contact them with specific questions.
Leopold should have information on both of the options on their site, if not they have pretty good customer service should you need to contact them with specific questions.
Forget 50mm. It just adds weight, costs more, makes the scope heavier, harder to mount and offers virtually no advantages in a 3-9X scope. A 50mm lense will let a tiny bit more usable light through compared to a 40mm scope, but only when on 10X.
You can get a standard duplex scope for around $300 street prices.
On a hunting scope the BDC reticle at around $350 is my choice. When zeroed at 100 yards the dots will be close enough to hit any big game animal with any modern rifle at 200, 300, and 400 yards respectively. You'll just need to get to the firing range and shoot. They won't be perfectly zeroed for all cartridges, but close enough. For example I find that my 30-06 will be pretty darn close at each range, my 308 will hit 2-3" lower than point of aim and my 300 WSM a couple of inches higher. That isn't a problem, you'll rarely find game at exactly 200, 300 or 400 yards anyway. Using a range finder you'll usually see something like 217 yards, 299, or 408. The dots will be sightly different with each cartridge, but close enough for large game. With a little range time with your rifle and loads will show you exactly where you'll hit at each range.
The dials can be much more precise, but they are much slower to use. If target shooting, or hunting smaller varmints they work better. Also FWIW, Leupold builds a good scope and the VX-2 is an excellent choice for hunters. But their lower priced scopes with dials have a reputation for not holding up as well. If I wanted dials on a scope I'd go up to the higher end Leupolds or another brand,
You can get a standard duplex scope for around $300 street prices.
On a hunting scope the BDC reticle at around $350 is my choice. When zeroed at 100 yards the dots will be close enough to hit any big game animal with any modern rifle at 200, 300, and 400 yards respectively. You'll just need to get to the firing range and shoot. They won't be perfectly zeroed for all cartridges, but close enough. For example I find that my 30-06 will be pretty darn close at each range, my 308 will hit 2-3" lower than point of aim and my 300 WSM a couple of inches higher. That isn't a problem, you'll rarely find game at exactly 200, 300 or 400 yards anyway. Using a range finder you'll usually see something like 217 yards, 299, or 408. The dots will be sightly different with each cartridge, but close enough for large game. With a little range time with your rifle and loads will show you exactly where you'll hit at each range.
The dials can be much more precise, but they are much slower to use. If target shooting, or hunting smaller varmints they work better. Also FWIW, Leupold builds a good scope and the VX-2 is an excellent choice for hunters. But their lower priced scopes with dials have a reputation for not holding up as well. If I wanted dials on a scope I'd go up to the higher end Leupolds or another brand,
Not true. What optical light-loss formula gives that result?
A larger diameter front objective lens always puts more light all over the target image than smaller diameter ones do for any given magnification, not just the highest one.
Check the formula for relative brightness of scopes. Objective lens diameter in millimeters divided by power. Close enough to reality. Lens glass types, their coatings and numbers will lower it a few percentage points
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Stubert
Member
What rifle are you putting the scope on?
Good advice given above. I just put a VX-2 3x9x40 with the BDC reticle on a M70. Here's what I think:
The BDC reticle is not the same as the Boone and Crocket reticle, in that the BDC has two 0.95 minute dots below the cross hair as well as the "picket tip" of the thicker lower duplex. These are your hold over aiming points when set at 9x. There are no provisions for windage, as on the Boone and crocket, so the cross hairs aren't as busy. The instructions give 2 classes of cartridges for which the dots are calibrated for, one class has you sight in at 200, and the dots will be close for 300, 400, and the picket tip 500 yards. The instructions are available on-line if you want to delve into it further.
You can customize your ranges, however, if you know your bullets trajectory. I used the online JBM program to determine mine. The dot, and picket subtensions are given in MOA in the instructions and you can assign a range for each of the two dots and the picket tip based on the calculated drop in minutes. For example, I'm shooting a 30-06, 180 grain Nosler Partition at 2625 fps. If I sight in 3" high at 100 yds, my dots will be on at 310 and 400 yds. The picket tip will be 490. At this point it is purely theoretical as I haven't had a chance to shoot at those distances yet to confirm.
IMO another problem with the BDC dial option is that it is specific to one bullet/velocity combination. If you change loads or rifles, you need to order another dial from Leupold, for a fee (of course).
As stated, the dots are only calibrated for the highest power on the scope. One of my sons missed an elk this year (Weaver scope with their version of the BDC) because in the heat of the moment he didn't crank up to full power, and shot over it. He did connect later in the hunt, so the ending was happy after all!
The BDC reticle is not the same as the Boone and Crocket reticle, in that the BDC has two 0.95 minute dots below the cross hair as well as the "picket tip" of the thicker lower duplex. These are your hold over aiming points when set at 9x. There are no provisions for windage, as on the Boone and crocket, so the cross hairs aren't as busy. The instructions give 2 classes of cartridges for which the dots are calibrated for, one class has you sight in at 200, and the dots will be close for 300, 400, and the picket tip 500 yards. The instructions are available on-line if you want to delve into it further.
You can customize your ranges, however, if you know your bullets trajectory. I used the online JBM program to determine mine. The dot, and picket subtensions are given in MOA in the instructions and you can assign a range for each of the two dots and the picket tip based on the calculated drop in minutes. For example, I'm shooting a 30-06, 180 grain Nosler Partition at 2625 fps. If I sight in 3" high at 100 yds, my dots will be on at 310 and 400 yds. The picket tip will be 490. At this point it is purely theoretical as I haven't had a chance to shoot at those distances yet to confirm.
IMO another problem with the BDC dial option is that it is specific to one bullet/velocity combination. If you change loads or rifles, you need to order another dial from Leupold, for a fee (of course).
As stated, the dots are only calibrated for the highest power on the scope. One of my sons missed an elk this year (Weaver scope with their version of the BDC) because in the heat of the moment he didn't crank up to full power, and shot over it. He did connect later in the hunt, so the ending was happy after all!
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mrbladedude
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cdb1
Member
"IMO another problem with the BDC dial option is that it is specific to one bullet/velocity combination. If you change loads or rifles, you need to order another dial from Leupold, for a fee (of course)."
Yep.
Yep.
cdb1
Member
Can't go wrong with a VX-2. My son's Vanguard S2 30-06 wears a 3-9x40 with duplex reticle.
The issue IMO with objective size is that any decent scope lets in more light than most eyes can take advantage of so a 50mm objective is overkill. The quality of the light is what matters. That's why you can see much better in low light with a Meopta MeoPro 3-9x40 than a Vortex Crossfire II 3-12x56.
The issue IMO with objective size is that any decent scope lets in more light than most eyes can take advantage of so a 50mm objective is overkill. The quality of the light is what matters. That's why you can see much better in low light with a Meopta MeoPro 3-9x40 than a Vortex Crossfire II 3-12x56.
Dog Soldier
member
The new scopes with all the magic adjustments that never seem to work. They are like fishing lures. They are made to attract the buyer not the fish.
I have a scope with a 50 MM Objective. It is mounted too high and offers little advantage. I much prefer the 40MM. The BDC turrets have not proven an advantage for me.
I have a scope with a 50 MM Objective. It is mounted too high and offers little advantage. I much prefer the 40MM. The BDC turrets have not proven an advantage for me.
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mrbladedude
Member
https://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting/scopes/vx-2-riflescopes/vx-2-3-9x40mm/
So yeah it doesn't show any pictures of the "bdc reticle" on the Leopold site that I can find, specifically for the VX2. Is it just a regular cross hair?
So yeah it doesn't show any pictures of the "bdc reticle" on the Leopold site that I can find, specifically for the VX2. Is it just a regular cross hair?
BDC systems are good for only one atmospheric condition assuming they're matched to one load in the rifle. Different temperatures and altitudes increase vertical errors as range gets longer non-linear up to 6 MOA at 1000 yards for a 308 Winchester.
If I'm not mistaken, check out the LR Duplex, second from bottom.
Exactly. Many ballistic programs, including the JBM program I've been using, have atmospheric and elevation input. But as with most things in life, BDC reticles have limitations. 1000 yd shots in a hunting situation are not ethical IMO.
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mrbladedude
Member
Found it. Ok so the reticles have the additional marking on the crosshair to show further distance.
So dials do not have those markings then correct? Only reticles?
With a 50MM objective you can go to a higher power and still get all the light your eye can use, if that is important to you, and you intend to hunt up until that last minute before it gets dark. I think they are a plus in some applications. Our buddies across the pond have long been advocates of large objectives for hunting in low light.
Let's say you are young and have the full 7MM eye pupil they say we have. (Gets worse with age).
Objective in MM divided by power setting equals exit pupil.
50MM / 7x = 7.14 exit pupil
42MM / 7x = 6.0 exit pupil
42MM / 6 = 7.0 exit pupil
So, a small advantage in the power you can use, but not much. And this is assuming the same exact glass and coatings. A quality scope with a 42MM objective can easily let more light through than a lesser 50MM one. Since these are all the same scope, a small advantage would be had.
An article by Nikon on exit pupil.
http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/sportoptics/how_to/guide/binoculars/basic/basic_05.htm
Let's say you are young and have the full 7MM eye pupil they say we have. (Gets worse with age).
Objective in MM divided by power setting equals exit pupil.
50MM / 7x = 7.14 exit pupil
42MM / 7x = 6.0 exit pupil
42MM / 6 = 7.0 exit pupil
So, a small advantage in the power you can use, but not much. And this is assuming the same exact glass and coatings. A quality scope with a 42MM objective can easily let more light through than a lesser 50MM one. Since these are all the same scope, a small advantage would be had.
An article by Nikon on exit pupil.
http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/sportoptics/how_to/guide/binoculars/basic/basic_05.htm
wally
Member
A disadvantage of the large exit pupil is in bright light it makes it easy to position your eye "off center" and introduce parallax error if the scope is not "side focus" or "adjustable objective" or you don't have time to adjust it before you need to shoot.
I'm going through this with my wife who has started to get interested in longer range shooting. I started her off with a simple 3-9x50 Vortex because she is still learning to "get behind" the rifle properly and gets frustrated by not seeing the full circle through the scope. This large exit pupil makes it easier to "find the reticle" but is definitely introducing parallax errors at 200-300 yards -- she'll hit five or six steel plates in a row and them miss three or four in a row and repeat as her position behind the rifle shifts with recoil and fatigue. Once she's learned to get behind the rifle consistently we'll shop for a better scope, right now I zero the simple duplex reticle for the range of the plates and let her do a center hold and start learning about compensating for wind. Small steps at a time, and so far she is enthusiastic about it and we are having fun.
I'm going through this with my wife who has started to get interested in longer range shooting. I started her off with a simple 3-9x50 Vortex because she is still learning to "get behind" the rifle properly and gets frustrated by not seeing the full circle through the scope. This large exit pupil makes it easier to "find the reticle" but is definitely introducing parallax errors at 200-300 yards -- she'll hit five or six steel plates in a row and them miss three or four in a row and repeat as her position behind the rifle shifts with recoil and fatigue. Once she's learned to get behind the rifle consistently we'll shop for a better scope, right now I zero the simple duplex reticle for the range of the plates and let her do a center hold and start learning about compensating for wind. Small steps at a time, and so far she is enthusiastic about it and we are having fun.
Coltdriver
Member
I would not bother with a bdc turret or reticle. You are much better off with a reticle like the long range that lets you use the hash marks to determine holdover for any round. There are so many variables that I have long thought the BDC's were just a way to part you from money best spent elsewhere. Watching the fellows on TV who adjust the reticle is, well, just for TV. Unless you are really trying to get way out there but that too is, well, just for TV. Very few people have the skill or the rifle to actually take a 600 yard shot. Some do. I have never found it that hard to sneak up on anything. I got to within 140 yards of an antelope herd last year, pretty easy to do.
A 50mm is great if that's the best the rifle can handle. A CZ for example, has such a high bolt throw that you might as well mount a 50mm objective because you are going to have your 40mm way up there. Not a bad thing, just looks funny. 50mm is pretty much a European standard, 40mm is the American standard if there is such a thing. With a Winchester you can go 40mm all day and get the scope reasonably low. Not a mandatory thing to get the scope super low and if you play with some ballistics software you can see the effect on your practical point blank range by mounting the scope a bit higher.
I would never get a side focus scope. Had one. My hunting experience is that you usually get very little time to take a shot and fooling with a side focus to adjust for parallax is just nor practical for me.
As for the Leupold I don't think you can go wrong with them. I have a few of them and have never had a problem of any kind with one.
A 50mm is great if that's the best the rifle can handle. A CZ for example, has such a high bolt throw that you might as well mount a 50mm objective because you are going to have your 40mm way up there. Not a bad thing, just looks funny. 50mm is pretty much a European standard, 40mm is the American standard if there is such a thing. With a Winchester you can go 40mm all day and get the scope reasonably low. Not a mandatory thing to get the scope super low and if you play with some ballistics software you can see the effect on your practical point blank range by mounting the scope a bit higher.
I would never get a side focus scope. Had one. My hunting experience is that you usually get very little time to take a shot and fooling with a side focus to adjust for parallax is just nor practical for me.
As for the Leupold I don't think you can go wrong with them. I have a few of them and have never had a problem of any kind with one.
I think it's important to verify arbitrary BDC reticles with live fire. Don't assume another load is going to have the same drop. Take altitude and ambient temperature into consideration. IMO "Standard" or "Magnum" designations don't cover all the variables.
I prefer a scope mounted low to the bore, as opposed to one with overly large objectives.
I prefer a scope mounted low to the bore, as opposed to one with overly large objectives.
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mrbladedude
Member
Thanks for all the replies. On a Winchester Model 70, I have decided to get the Badger Ordnance rail and scope mounts. There are 3 options with the rail. Long, short and short magnum action scope rail. Which one is suitable for the Model 70 in 30-06? As for the rings, the lower the better correct? Should I get the medium ones or their smallest size on this particular firearm?
Scope is a Leupold VX-2 3-9x40mm with a bdc reticle
Scope is a Leupold VX-2 3-9x40mm with a bdc reticle
cdb1
Member
Low rings work most of the time with a 40mm objective. That's what I'd start with.
wally
Member
As long as it doesn't interfere with the bolt throw, as low as you can go and still get a good cheek weld is generally the best, so the stock will also come into to play in setting the appropriate height.
The current AR induced trend is for rather straight stocks and correspondingly high scope/sight mounts. The higher the sight line, the larger the errors from canting the rifle (not holding it perpendicular to the ground).
Dog Soldier
member
Most of the Big game I have hunted never seems to pose for a shot. I use the old "Rocky Mtn" calculation. If my cross wires cover 1" at one hundred yards it covers 4" at 400 yards. Yes, I know the approximate size of an elks shoulder.
This has worked better for me than a BDC. My Experiences with a 4X Colt scope and a BDC goes back 50 years.
This has worked better for me than a BDC. My Experiences with a 4X Colt scope and a BDC goes back 50 years.
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mrbladedude
Member
Will the Badger Ordnance lowest rings interfere with the bolt on a Model 70?
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