Scout Scope Question

[Mixed Nuts]

Hello Highroad,

I find the scout scope system interesting. And I was talking to a friend about it recently when he said that if the sun was low and behind you, off the side of either shoulder, it might throw a reflection off the eye piece and make the scope hard or impossible to use.

Anybody have experience with scout scopes?

Is the above a concern?

Any other pros or cons to the scout scope a newbie might not know?

 

[GRIZ22]

The same situation can exist if the sun is in front of you with any scope. That could be mitigated by use of a sunshade. You can't do that with a scout.

I guess you can set up a situation you describe but I haven't experienced it shooting my scout.

 

[chicharrones]

I can get a reflection off my cheek that will put glare on a traditional scope ocular lens when the sun is above or in front of me. A scope with good anti-glare coating will reduce that, but wearing a ball cap to keep the sun from reflecting off my face makes it even better for me.

For a scout scope, a hat with a decent 360 degree brim can help with the sun behind you. It's not going to be perfect with the sun setting behind you, but better than having no hat on.

 

[jmr40]

I've played with them. A low powered conventional scope does everything better. The alleged advantages are that you can shoot quickly and keep both eyes open and still be able to see around the scope. You can do all that with a conventionally mounted scope if you keep the magnification to 1X on the low end without messing up the rifles balance and handling.

With the optics available when Jeff Cooper started pushing the "scout" concept there may have been an advantage. But no more. Plus the primary reason he wanted a forward mounted scope was to make it possible to quickly reload the military actions he used via stripper clips. Almost no one uses stripper clips anymore. If you do, then you need the forward mount. Otherwise it is more handicap than help.

 

[Mixed Nuts]

Griz22, interesting. When my friend proposed the possible refletion problem, I wondered if some kind of improvised sunshade on the eye piece end of the scout scope might help.

Chicarrones, I need a desert hat anyway. I tend to avoid hats back east because I can only look up deliberately and on climbs I feel like I'm missing things that are up ahead. I've been cooking my face in the south west - I'm a slow learner.

Jmr40, I've heard similar criticisms. Likely good advice. Was looking at the burris and Leupold scouts. I think the burris had 2.5 inches of eye relief. That seemed like a fast optic to me. But I have limited scope experience... can you acquire targets with both eyes open at 2.5 power with your 1-4 power?

 

[cdb1]

I see significantly worse with a scout scope set-up than with a standard set up. With the same quality scope.

 

[gulogulo1970]

I noticed a reflection off the rear objective of my scout scope (Vortex 2x7 Scout) just this past weekend at the range. A large hat would have fixed it, but I don't like large hats. It is something I'm still playing with. I grew up reading Cooper, I think his ideas have merit but I'm pretty sure it is not an ideal set-up. If it were, more rifles would have scout scopes by now and we'd be seeing a large shift away from traditional scopes. I'm still going to try to learn how to use it, it is different for sure.

 

[Legionnaire]

I agree with jmr40. I tried scout scopes on a couple of GP rifles and ended up settling on a compact 2-7X Leupold in the conventional location.

 

[Mixed Nuts]

cdb1, i hear this. In light of the consensus hereabouts on the scout scope, it is a persuasive comment.

Gulogulo1979, I read the art of the rifle in my late twenties. Have a ruger gunsite scout and love it thanks to Cooper. Always shoot irons. Been thinking about a scope for my ar15. Probably won't be a scout considering what many people here and elsewhere have said about them.

Legionnaire, will probably try a conventional scope at 2.5 x 7 or 2 × 7 with about an inch of eye relief and just see how fast I can find targets with it.

 

[<*(((><]

I have a Ruger GSR, and have conventionally mounted scope as the scout scope concept never took off for me. But the rifle met a lot of my other desires.

 

[chicharrones]

cdb1, i hear this. In light of the consensus hereabouts on the scout scope, it is a persuasive comment.

Gulogulo1979, I read the art of the rifle in my late twenties. Have a ruger gunsite scout and love it thanks to Cooper. Always shoot irons. Been thinking about a scope for my ar15. Probably won't be a scout considering what many people here and elsewhere have said about them.

Legionnaire, will probably try a conventional scope at 2.5 x 7 or 2 × 7 with about an inch of eye relief and just see how fast I can find targets with it.

For an AR, I find a 1-4x with about 3.5" to 4" of eye relief to be better than a scout scope. It's far enough away from the eye to feel like you're not "in the scope", like a short eye relief scope, and the field of view is superior to a scout scope.

Honestly, my best experience with a scout scope is 2x pistol scopes that happen to have short 9"-10" eye relief, which is scout eye relief range. The 2x is more like a replacement for open sights in this regard. But the same can be said for the aforementioned 1-4x or a red dot.

Of course, once you get into 2-7x and higher magnification, what I just wrote doesn't apply to me.

 

[Mixed Nuts]

For an AR, I find a 1-4x with about 3.5" to 4" of eye relief to be better than a scout scope. It's far enough away from the eye to feel like you're not "in the scope", like a short eye relief scope, and the field of view is superior to a scout scope.

Honestly, my best experience with a scout scope is 2x pistol scopes that happen to have short 9"-10" eye relief, which is scout eye relief range. The 2x is more like a replacement for open sights in this regard. But the same can be said for the aforementioned 1-4x or a red dot.

Of course, once you get into 2-7x and higher magnification, what I just wrote doesn't apply to me.

This is an interesting post. With the 1 x 4 scopes, can a person keep the magnification at 2 or 3 power and still acquire targets rapidly? Or does the scope need to be dialed down to 1 power for fast work?

I ask this because I'm trying to figure out if there is a scope type that can be used for quick target acquisition when used at a magnified setting.

I figure that, if the scope is going to slow me down, then I might accept more power and a bigger objective. But I really don't know much about scopes except the little I've read. The few scopes I've looked through have slowed me down quite a bit, first trying to find the view through and then trying to find the target. The scout scope always seemed interesting because I imagined that, with long eye relief, low power, and two eyes open, I would never lose and then need to re-find the target as I took aim.

 

[Mixed Nuts]

It seems that what is needed is a scope, that's set at 1 power, that adjusts out to a preset magnified power after the target is acquired by the shooter. This quick adjustment has to be effected in some kind of hands-free way. A way in which the shooter needn't take his hands from his shooting position on the rifle.

Could somebody please build that and get back to me?

 

[SharpDog]

Hello Highroad,

I find the scout scope system interesting. And I was talking to a friend about it recently when he said that if the sun was low and behind you, off the side of either shoulder, it might throw a reflection off the eye piece and make the scope hard or impossible to use.

Anybody have experience with scout scopes?

Is the above a concern?

Any other pros or cons to the scout scope a newbie might not know?

Have been shooting scouts for 20 years or so, never had that happen. My current scopes are the Leupold Firedot scout and the Firedot is VERY bright.

https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/leupolds-vx-r-scout-firedot-new-age-scout-scope

https://www.leupold.com/scopes/compact-scopes/vx-r-1-5-5x33mm-scout

 

[SharpDog]

cdb1, i hear this. In light of the consensus hereabouts on the scout scope, it is a persuasive comment.

Gulogulo1979, I read the art of the rifle in my late twenties. Have a ruger gunsite scout and love it thanks to Cooper. Always shoot irons. Been thinking about a scope for my ar15. Probably won't be a scout considering what many people here and elsewhere have said about them.

Legionnaire, will probably try a conventional scope at 2.5 x 7 or 2 × 7 with about an inch of eye relief and just see how fast I can find targets with it.

This AR (DDM4V7LW) is exactly 8 lbs unloaded as pictured. Just slightly more than my .308 Cooper Scout from Steyr. Should remain at the same weight with my 6.5G lightweight upper. I just got the 6.5G upper for it in today (still waiting on the low mass BCG) and I already have the additional scope and rings

 

[SharpDog]

This is an interesting post. With the 1 x 4 scopes, can a person keep the magnification at 2 or 3 power and still acquire targets rapidly? Or does the scope need to be dialed down to 1 power for fast work?

I ask this because I'm trying to figure out if there is a scope type that can be used for quick target acquisition when used at a magnified setting.

I figure that, if the scope is going to slow me down, then I might accept more power and a bigger objective. But I really don't know much about scopes except the little I've read. The few scopes I've looked through have slowed me down quite a bit, first trying to find the view through and then trying to find the target. The scout scope always seemed interesting because I imagined that, with long eye relief, low power, and two eyes open, I would never lose and then need to re-find the target as I took aim.

With both eyes open at 1.5x the Firedot scout functions just like a red dot.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Something not available to Col. Cooper when he started promoting the scout rifle concept was the intermediate eye relied (IER) scope. E.g., this Leupold VX-2 1-4x on my Ruger GSR:



It's mounted on the factory rail in low Warne QD rings.

I like this setup because it allows the scope to be mounted very low, avoids any chance of me getting scope eye, and it's far enough forward that it doesn't interfere with rapid bolt manipulation. It's also not as vulnerable to glare on the ocular lens as long eye relief scout scopes.

The IER scope as shown on my Ruger would prevent loading from stripper clips, but AFAIC that's moot with the rifle's use of detachable magazines.

Anyway, it's another option for folks to consider.

 

[SharpDog]

Something not available to Col. Cooper when he started promoting the scout rifle concept was the intermediate eye relied (IER) scope. E.g., this Leupold VX-2 1-4x on my Ruger GSR:

View attachment 786347

It's mounted on the factory rail in low Warne QD rings.

I like this setup because it allows the scope to be mounted very low, avoids any chance of me getting scope eye, and it's far enough forward that it doesn't interfere with rapid bolt manipulation. It's also not as vulnerable to glare on the ocular lens as long eye relief scout scopes.

The IER scope as shown on my Ruger would prevent loading from stripper clips, but AFAIC that's moot with the rifle's use of detachable magazines.

Anyway, it's another option for folks to consider.

Have you ever experienced 'glare on the ocular lens' ?

 

[Dave Markowitz]

@SharpDog: No.

 

[LoonWulf]

Ive always thought the scout scope concept was neat, my only real experience is with a pistol scope mounted on the rear sight dovetail of a 91/30. I shot that rifle off the bench, but never did any field shooting or hunting with it.
My personal preference for general hunting guns are standard scopes with a low range of 1-4. Unless stuff is moving and the distance is measured in feet, i see little advantage to a 1 power over a 4 power, but at that range it has mattered significantly.
With enough practice, even highpower scopes will generally be "on" when you shoulder a rifle and point it at a target.

Im a scope baby tho, i cant shoot any version of metallic, or even red dot, sights as well as i do a scope. Honestly with regular opens, i might as well sight down the side of the gun, which ive done more than once.

 

[Varminterror]

This is an interesting post. With the 1 x 4 scopes, can a person keep the magnification at 2 or 3 power and still acquire targets rapidly? Or does the scope need to be dialed down to 1 power for fast work?

All depends upon the person and their level of practice. For example, I shot my buck last winter on the run under 30yrds with a 6-24x50mm scope set on 10x. Both eyes open, well practiced, absolutely no problems with target acquisition or tracking.

On the other hand, a lot of folks have trouble finding ANYTHING in any scope.

 

[chicharrones]

This is an interesting post. With the 1 x 4 scopes, can a person keep the magnification at 2 or 3 power and still acquire targets rapidly? Or does the scope need to be dialed down to 1 power for fast work?

I ask this because I'm trying to figure out if there is a scope type that can be used for quick target acquisition when used at a magnified setting.

Sure! Just like a scout scope at 2x (or 2.5x, 2.75x) can be used quickly, same goes for a 1-4x scope.

Very important is the scope height to the stock's comb. If the scope doesn't line up instantly with your eye when you shoulder the rifle, then you'll lose time trying to find the target in the scope. The scout scope is more critical than a traditionally mounted scope (with similar magnification) in this regard due to the smaller view in the scout scope, IMO.

In the photo below, even though the two pistol scopes (2x with 10" and 9" eye relief) are mounted as low as I could get them, I still had to add some material to the stock to get my eyes up just that little bit higher.

View attachment 786412

 

[chicharrones]

With the optics available when Jeff Cooper started pushing the "scout" concept there may have been an advantage. But no more. Plus the primary reason he wanted a forward mounted scope was to make it possible to quickly reload the military actions he used via stripper clips. Almost no one uses stripper clips anymore. If you do, then you need the forward mount. Otherwise it is more handicap than help.

Not counting stripper clip usage on a converted mil-surp, I have an illogical desire to have a receiver mounted peep sight while a scope is mounted. Barring AR height scopes and AR sights that can fold down, the scout concept on a bolt gun is one way to go. Not counting Steyr's method or a custom job, of course.

Personally, I like Dave Markowitz's solution shown in post #17.

 

[SharpDog]

Plus the primary reason he wanted a forward mounted scope was to make it possible to quickly reload the military actions he used via stripper clips. Almost no one uses stripper clips anymore. If you do, then you need the forward mount. Otherwise it is more handicap than help.

Do you realize the Steyr Scout, Designed by Jeff Cooper has detachable magazines? Cooper's signature version has a 10 rd. detachable while the 'plain Jane' scout has a 5 rd. detachable box magazine.

Of course, you know Col. Cooper founded Gunsite. It is interesting then, that the Ruger Gunsite Scout, co-desigend by Gunsite ALSO has a detachable box. What would the need be then to accommodate stripper clips in these TWO rifles designed with input from Col. Cooper ?



http://steyrarms.com/auto-3769.html

It is also very interesting that the Steyr Scout was introduced in 1999 and the Gunsite Scout was introduced in 2011. However. IER scopes (as opposed to EER) have been available since the 1960's:

 

[Varminterror]

Of course, you know Col. Cooper founded Gunsite. It is interesting then, that the Ruger Gunsite Scout, co-desigend by Gunsite ALSO has a detachable box. What would the need be then to accommodate stripper clips in these TWO rifles designed with input from Col. Cooper ?

How much design input do you feel Cooper offered for the Ruger Gunsite rifle? Considering, of course, he was dead for 5yrs before it was released...