Secret Sauce Wet Tumbling WITHOUT pins

[300Whspr]

Hate to jump into the middle of an argument here, but just wondering if anyone has tried adding Borax or Washing Soda (sodium carbonate) to the mix, and if so, were there any benefits observed?

 

[Tilos]

Hate to jump into the middle of an argument here, but just wondering if anyone has tried adding Borax or Washing Soda (sodium carbonate) to the mix, and if so, were there any benefits observed?

Funny how one grumpy poster can suck the life out of a thread...

Anyways, I haven't, thanks for the suggestion, I'll add Borax and washing soda to my list.
I've run out of dirty brass for testing and it's been too cold/windy here to make more.
Post back if you have tried anything different,

 

[300Whspr]

I just built a tumbler, so I'm just getting started with it myself. I've used the dry vibrator with corncob for years, but decided to give wet tumbling a try. I've got my first experiment going right now, as I just finished my tumbler yesterday... I've got a bunch of old range 30-30 brass that was given to me... but it's just in Dawn right now... no pins (don't have any yet). Just to get a baseline.

 

[300Whspr]

Why. What would it do?. All it does is change the alkalinity (pH)of the water which depends on you original water source.

Washing soda is made from baking soda buy heating it in a oven to Co2

That's the question!!

 

[Demi-human]

I like these...
http://www.bullseye-reloading.com/

I have ten pounds worth in my tumbler.

 

[Tilos]

Just as a refresh...
A lot of reloaders, here and on other forums, have been posting about wet tumbling without pins and accepting less than "as clean as with pins" primer pockets.
A new product is being sold that claims to remedy the dirty primer pockets/no pins wet tumbling method, called Brass Juice, and seems to be selling quite well.
This Brass Juice gets great reviews:
https://www.thereloadingstation.com/products/brass-juice-case-wash
I'm just looking for a common product that will work as well.
Thanks for reading my thread,

 

[dredd]

Interesting product.

Post up on a new thread if you try it.

I'd like to give it a whirl.

 

[Dudedog]

but it's just in Dawn right now.

Add some citric acid, makes a big difference.
(canning section at the supermarket)

 

[300Whspr]

Yep, I bought a lifetime supply of Lemishine at WallyWorld for just over $5 for 24oz. 12oz size was only about a $1.50 less...

My first batch after a 2 hr tumble with Dawn only, no pins or Lemishine came out impressively clean... not bright, but very clean. I'm impressed.

 

[9mmepiphany]

it's just in Dawn right now... no pins (don't have any yet). Just to get a baseline.

All Dawn, or other detergent, does is allow loose dirt to slip off and remain suspended in liquid. Some dirt might get scraped off when rubbing against other cases, but anything scorched on will pretty much stay in place.

What citric acid (lemi-shine) does is chemically loosen the carbon to allow the cases to rub it off more easily and allow the soap to keep it in suspension.

What the pins do is cause more rubbing between the cases and also get into smaller areas (primer pockets) that cases can't reach.

 

[Spade5]

I decided to try Cascade dishwasher liquid. So far it looks promising but I haven't tried it on really dirty brass. It has Dawn and citric acid in it and supposedly anti spotting stuff. I am using it with pins so I cannot say how it do without them.

 

[300Whspr]

I like these...
http://www.bullseye-reloading.com/

I have ten pounds worth in my tumbler.

Looks like the business you linked above went TU... unfortunately.

 

[300Whspr]

For the guys using the AAW&W, how much do you add? I made a 1 gallon and a 2 gallon drum for my tumbler.

 

[Demi-human]

Well, that sucks.

Any pin that is fourty seven hundredths would do.

Provided, of course, if that was the size of the flash hole one was trying to prevent pin wedging from occuring in.

I'll look for another site to link to, but I am sorry to see them go.

Run out of inexpensive drop supply I imagine...
Scrap makes much better product than raw material. No waste.

Oh, well.

Any report of case mouth peening without steel pins? I feel I've over done my tumbler. Perhaps they should just roll along the bottom of the cylinder, rather than being elevated and dashed upon the lower cases? More of a scrub than an impact cleansing?

 

[Tilos]

Well, that sucks.

Any pin that is fourty seven hundredths would do.

Provided, of course, if that was the size of the flash hole one was trying to prevent pin wedging from occuring in.

I'll look for another site to link to, but I am sorry to see them go.

Run out of inexpensive drop supply I imagine...
Scrap makes much better product than raw material. No waste.

Oh, well.

Any report of case mouth peening without steel pins? I feel I've over done my tumbler. Perhaps they should just roll along the bottom of the cylinder, rather than being elevated and dashed upon the lower cases? More of a scrub than an impact cleansing?

Good question, thanks for posting

It seems a lot of home made tumblers/tumbler drums I've seen run at a 45 degree angle without a cover, kind of like a cement mixer.
That configuration has got to be less shock on the case mouths.
I've found once fired cases to have burs both inside and outside from the factory's aggressive tumbling.
The Frankford Arsenal drums have a larger ring on either end that are driven by the rollers, and some cases(9mm) just ride around in those rings when I tumble without pins.
And the amount of churning is affected by both the amount of brass, and amount of water.
just another variation, tumbling without pins

 

[Skgreen]

For the guys using the AAW&W, how much do you add? I made a 1 gallon and a 2 gallon drum for my tumbler.

FWIW:

My mix in a FART is 1 liquid OZ of AAW & W combined with 1 liquid OZ of Frankford Arsenal brass cleaner.

I use a cheap plastic shot glass to measure with,,, (Not sure where the Wife got 'em,,, heh heh heh!!!)

Just guessing the FART may be somewhere around ~ 3 ~ gallons,

 

[Demi-human]

drums I've seen run at a 45 degree angle without a cover, kind of like a cement mixer.

A good point.
Perhaps this makes it easier to regulate the water level as well.

Hmm.

Back to the drawing board for me.
How to use my existing containers and variable speed pulley set...

Not all of my containers have the stainless angle baffles. Those may be more gentle.
I originally installed them to stop the rolling along the bottom. I disliked the three or four cases that had set just right to get the roll rings on them.


The trouble is, my machine works great in thirty minutes, as is. Minus the slight peening.
Ya know what is said about fixing unbroken things...

 

[CryptKeeper5]

Tried not using pins and for me not worth it. The few minutes to put in RCBS rotary separator filled with water the cleaner brass is worth it.

Yeah...I've screwed around with this and that magic potion, lotion and motion but found that nothing beats pins, a little Dawn and Lemishine. I use a fine mesh collander to rinse and drain the brass in super hot water and also rinse the pins while I'm at it. It MAY add a few minutes overall however I do this because I enjoy it so what's the hurry?

 

[Tilos]

A good point.
Perhaps this makes it easier to regulate the water level as well.

Hmm.

Back to the drawing board for me.
How to use my existing containers and variable speed pulley set...

Not all of my containers have the stainless angle baffles. Those may be more gentle.
I originally installed them to stop the rolling along the bottom. I disliked the three or four cases that had set just right to get the roll rings on them.


The trouble is, my machine works great in thirty minutes, as is. Minus the slight peening.
Ya know what is said about fixing unbroken things...

That pic you posted of your tumbler is impressive, a well thought out design.
I wonder if you could just put some risers under the table front legs to tip the entire table and container up and try it angled.
What type of paddles are in the drums?

 

[Demi-human]

There are two full length inch and a half stainless angles bolted through the cylinder. The bugle head bolts are counter sunk in the plastic. The nuts are tightened on the angle inside and the bolt bent over. The reducer and end cap are then glued over top of the bolt heads, waterproofing the entire thing.

The pipe cylinder must be outside chambered to be sure there are no small crevices to trap the pins when the cap and reducer are glued on.

I can definitely hear a whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, of the baffles dropping the cases. I most likely did not need such big paddles, let alone two, just to stop the case from rolling.

If it can be done, I can over do it, I always say!

 

[300Whspr]

OK, I've been looking the past few days for the AAW&W, but no joy anywhere. So, I picked up a bottle of Blue Coral Wash&Wax with Carnuba wax. I'm thinking it ought to be about the same thing.

My pins arrive sometime this week, so I'll have the full setup finally.

Here's a pic of my tumbler that I built....

 

[Demi-human]

Here's a pic of my tumbler that I built...

Very nice! Much easier to stow than mine.



Since much of the conversation regarding tumbling without pins revolves around the cleanliness of primer pockets, I wonder of there is a certain brand of primer that is most clean. When I switched to CCI Magnum primers from Winchester Large Pistol primers I noticed that the pockets were cleaner in the Fifty A.E. cases. I attributed that to the cleaner burn. But perhaps it was because of the differing primer compounds. I haven't use any in any other cartridges, yet. Obviously I need to try it now...
All I use for rifle cases are CCI so I am not sure if there is a difference or if I am inferring one.

I don't want to drift away too far, but if the pockets were already cleaner, pins wouldn't be as necessary and tumbling without them would be expedient.

I like Limei-Shine. I hear it passivates the brass surface from future tarnish. I like vinegar chips, but the vinegar wash didn't work as well for me and the cases dulled quickly. That could have been on me.

I will always wet tumble, pins or no, because I prefer the cleanliness compared to dry cleaned cases. (At least all the ones I've seen...)

 

[Tilos]

OK, I've been looking the past few days for the AAW&W, but no joy anywhere. So, I picked up a bottle of Blue Coral Wash&Wax with Carnuba wax. I'm thinking it ought to be about the same thing.

My pins arrive sometime this week, so I'll have the full setup finally.

Here's a pic of my tumbler that I built....View attachment 821173

Nice build, thanks for posting
Something I do different than most is not use the car wash/wax in the initial "no pins" tumbling just Dawn/Lemishine/(secret sauce).
After the final rinse I mix some car wash/wax stuff and water in a container, put the brass in, stir the brass and let it set for a few minutes, then drain out the water.
I let the brass dry at this point, without rinsing, all to leave the max amount of wax behind as a lube for easier re-sizing.
Oops forgot to mention, I de-prime before tumbling but don't re-size, makes more sense now

 

[Dudedog]

I use what ever wash and wax the car is currently getting.
Car gets what's on sale.
Armour All, Blue Coral, Turtle, all about the same on brass (and the car for that matter)
A dollop of wash and wax, I never measure, 1oz, 2oz, 3oz - not critical.
The right amount of citric makes a big difference. (and the citric acid makes a big difference, canning section at the supermarket, Lemishine=citric acid)
For your size tumbler maybe 1 or 2 .45 cases full.

 

[300Whspr]

Very nice! Much easier to stow than mine.



Since much of the conversation regarding tumbling without pins revolves around the cleanliness of primer pockets, I wonder of there is a certain brand of primer that is most clean. When I switched to CCI Magnum primers from Winchester Large Pistol primers I noticed that the pockets were cleaner in the Fifty A.E. cases. I attributed that to the cleaner burn. But perhaps it was because of the differing primer compounds. I haven't use any in any other cartridges, yet. Obviously I need to try it now...
All I use for rifle cases are CCI so I am not sure if there is a difference or if I am inferring one.

I don't want to drift away too far, but if the pockets were already cleaner, pins wouldn't be as necessary and tumbling without them would be expedient.

I like Limei-Shine. I hear it passivates the brass surface from future tarnish. I like vinegar chips, but the vinegar wash didn't work as well for me and the cases dulled quickly. That could have been on me.

I will always wet tumble, pins or no, because I prefer the cleanliness compared to dry cleaned cases. (At least all the ones I've seen...)

I use **mostly** CCI primers, but I have also used a good amount of Remington primers as well. I have noticed that the Remingtons do seem to leave a bit more gunk behind than the CCI's. I've also had a few misfires with Remingtons. Never a single misfire with CCI... but that's a new thread.

Nice build, thanks for posting
Something I do different than most is not use the car wash/wax in the initial "no pins" tumbling just Dawn/Lemishine/(secret sauce).
After the final rinse I mix some car wash/wax stuff and water in a container, put the brass in, stir the brass and let it set for a few minutes, then drain out the water.
I let the brass dry at this point, without rinsing, all to leave the max amount of wax behind as a lube for easier re-sizing.
Oops forgot to mention, I de-prime before tumbling but don't re-size, makes more sense now

Thanks for that!! I was kinda curious as to what the proper procedure would be... as you said with a final dunk in the W&W or add the W&W to the tumble and then rinse.

I use what ever wash and wax the car is currently getting.
Car gets what's on sale.
Armour All, Blue Coral, Turtle, all about the same on brass (and the car for that matter)
A dollop of wash and wax, I never measure, 1oz, 2oz, 3oz - not critical.
The right amount of citric makes a big difference. (and the citric acid makes a big difference, canning section at the supermarket, Lemishine=citric acid)
For your size tumbler maybe 1 or 2 .45 cases full.

I made myself a little "dipper" out of a 40S&W case just for measuring out 'just the right amount' of LemiShine. From what I've read, it sounds like 40 case full for my small 1 gal drum and 2 for the large 2 gal drum should be close to the right amount.

And, my pins arrived today as well... they look a little dingy... I guess they'll need a wash of their own before I use them.