Self-defense against strangulation

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Martial Arts

I was thinking about taking some martial arts. However, when I was around 10, I took some karate. Looking back, it seems like a lot of martial arts are good for sparring and tournament type fighting, not the escape and evade that you'd need in real life self-defense. So I got into pepper spray and concealed carry a few years ago, because I've heard many into self-defense say someone with a weapon is at an advantage, even pepper spray gives you an extreme advantage against someone with only empty hand abilities and someone from my state's department of public safety said that you can use it against an unarmed person trying to punch you because it's less likely to cause permanent damage than punching and use can use like force. However, empty hand techniques may be useful if someone's so close that no weapon will be useful. Judo's probably a lot more useful in the real world than something like karate.
 
The defense against a choke depends on so many circumstances that any across-the-board solution only offers a false sense of security "Oh, I KNOW what I would do!"

Combine that with the self-appointed, high-speed, low-drag operator's opinions so easily spawned by the anonymity of an internet forum & you have the perfect recipe for disaster. The truth is...a well-executed choke means a world of trouble for the victim. Find qualified, experienced instruction in hand-to-hand self defense & train/practice until your response to an attack is as natural as breathing. Then live your life with the serious intent of never having to use your training.

*P.S. Jason Borne is a fictional character.
 
Combine that with the self-appointed, high-speed, low-drag operator's opinions so easily spawned by the anonymity of an internet forum & you have the perfect recipe for disaster. The truth is...a well-executed choke means a world of trouble for the victim. Find qualified, experienced instruction in hand-to-hand self defense & train/practice until your response to an attack is as natural as breathing.
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+1,000,000

As I said before, serious training requires that the person attempting to apply the choke really try to apply the choke. Get qualified instruction. Until you've had your eyes roll back in your head and started to black out, you haven't been trained realistically. It's dangerous enough to practice, but doing so on one's own without an instructor is a recipe for disaster. A paragraph or two on a web forum is only enough info to get you hurt.

ETA: In law enforcement we used to teach the use of carotid chokes for submission. The only problem was that the line between getting someone to submit vs. injuring or killing them is a very fine one when chokes are involved. They are no longer taught for this reason. That should be a hint right there how dangerous chokes are.
 
I think that specific tactics to defend against the most dangerous chokes are dependent on the skills of the one being choked. Dangerous implies that we are not talking about standing front chokes or similar tactics that most people with minimal levels of training should be able to defend against.
That being said, some of the generic responses here are just plain bad advice.

If someone has managed to get a cord around my neck and is trying to garrote me, a groin strike is the last thing I'd be worried about at that moment. Same goes for a blood-choke, there just isn't enough time for weapon deployment or pain/compliance tactics. You have to defend you consciousness first and foremost. The previous advice given about chin position and protecting the blood supply was excellent. Head-butting can be effective if you know what you are doing. But it can also provide enough space to "set" the choke.

Further tactics really depend on what your skills and abilities are. Are you skilled at throwing? How about grappling? Head-butts, knees, and elbows? How physically strong are you? Setting up a guillotine or similar blood choke is a bit more difficult on an opponent with well developed neck and shoulders muscles.

Training this stuff is paramount. If you do, you have a much better chance of sensing that a choke is coming before it is "set". Preventing a choke is a lot easier than trying to escape a good one.
 
before you go unconscious or at least can't fight anymore? If you hold your breath under water, I know that you can hold it for a few minutes. ...When people strangle you, does that cut the breathing off more or the blood to your brain, or does it depend? How much time do you usually have of consciousness if they're not playing around but have the intent to kill you?
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It's not at all like holding your breath, a successful choke only leaves you with the oxygenated blood in your head-and this isn't circulating. You have no means to draw or expel any air nor does your heart have the ability to pump fresh blood into or out-of your brain. Blackout can be almost instantaneous because of this.
 
Blackout can be almost instantaneous because of this.
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I've actually been "choked out" before, and I've actually "choked out" others before (but to be more correct, we're talking about strangulations and not true chokes. Strangulations cut off blood flow to the brain. Chokes cut off air to the lungs. And true chokes are VERY DANGEROUS to even practice).

I've never seen anyone blackout instantaneously from being strangled.
The fastest that I've ever seen was about 10 seconds....which is very fast, but certainly not instantaneous.
And this was only after they had secured the lock around the neck.....and it took them about 45 seconds to secure the lock and actually apply the strangulation.

Now this still does not give the victim much time to react.
Which is why I suggest pulling your knife and start cutting and stabbing.
It takes less than 2 seconds to draw and open a pocket-clip folder like a Spyderco Endura.

Another good reason to use a knife is this:
Fighters routinely practice defending against counters to their chokes (like thumb pulls, eye gouges, groin strikes, etc...).
And fighters routinely practice defending agansit knife attacks.
But I have never seen anyone who routinely practices defending against knife attacks WHILE they're choking someone.
 
The fastest that I've ever seen was about 10 seconds....which is very fast, but certainly not instantaneous.
And this was only after they had secured the lock around the neck.....and it took them about 45 seconds to secure the lock and actually apply the strangulation.
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Apparently you've never practiced with Sensei Lemond. Working with him was like fighting a boa constrictor. I personally have had him apply a choke in about half a second that had me blacking out 4-5 seconds later. If your technique is correct, the blood supply to the brain is shut off almost instantaneously. No way I could have gotten to and drawn a knife or a gun in time.

(Note that I do not claim the same level of skill for myself. He used a "popping" technique that he said caused the arteries to spasm and close very quickly. Darndest thing.)
 
I don't know Karate, but I know Carazyyyy!!! I'd go Buckwild! trying to flip the attacker, jumping up and landing on my back, I'd shoot behind my head, and behind my back, I'd circle, bite, shoot, kick,stab, head-butt, and fight until I was dead.
 
I personally have had him apply a choke in about half a second that had me blacking out 4-5 seconds later.
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Let me get this straight....
You and him are squared off against each other, and in 1/2 a second he has you in a choke hold, and in 5 more seconds you were blacking out?



But regardless....even if this is true, I think we can safely say that the average street thug is not as proficient as your incredible Sensei Lemond.
 
This is PURELY Academic......

If an amaetur were to grab you from behind and perform a choke hold. You have between five and ten seconds to escape. After a few years of any of the basic martial arts you should be able to defeat them.
If someone who has there act together and really wants you to disappear; well they will first use a .5 meter piece of wire to perform the actual strangulation, and use their knee to strike you in the kidney to cause sufficient pain to immobilize you for the thirty seconds required to cause unconciousness. This is far quieter then using a dagger from behind.
Unlike the movies, it will take three minutes to make sure the victim is neutralized and does not go into convulsions.
In all actuallity if someone really wants you dead [and knows what they are doing], even if you are armed, if you are alone, unless you are wearing a gorget, you are dead.

About those statistics,,,,,,,, those are from the recovered bodies. What about the ones that disappear?????
The police are great about placing chalk marks around corpes, taking great pictures, and writting reports.
 
First, you gotta make sure you don't end up in the situation.

And, in my experience, when someone grabs you from behind, backing fast into a hard object works very well. They cushion the impact quite nicely. Over in maybe two seconds.

Of course I'm 6'2", and when I was playing that sorta games I was in shape and weighed about 240...

Now? Don't play with games. Either shoot them, or grab something they like dearly, and attempt to remove it. Falling will buy you time, and if you are used to grappling, you might find something to grab onto.
 
You and him are squared off against each other, and in 1/2 a second he has you in a choke hold, and in 5 more seconds you were blacking out?
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No, plain old randori. He applied morote jime, a choke which looks like you're entering for a morote seoi nage but apply the choke in the middle. Yeah, I'd never seen it and he caught me off guard because I was trying to block the morote seoi nage with my hip. Part of the reason it cuts your blood supply off so quickly is that it uses your full body weight and your opponent's body weight for leverage. I was off balance, falling forward into the choke... nasty. I'm glad it wasn't for real. ;)

I'll admit that the typical randori pose isn't gonna happen on the street and that morote jime is a very advanced choking technique. And yes, Sensei Lemond is incredible.
 
I was curious, if someone's strangling you, how likely is it that a carotid artery will collapse? If you do knock them off you, is there anything you can do about a collapsed cartoid artery? If only one of them is collapsed, is that okay, meaning you won't go unconscious? If both of them are collapsed, is there anything you can do to allow blood up there, or is it basically lights out for you, as in you're not only unconscious but history?
 
I was curious, if someone's strangling you, how likely is it that a carotid artery will collapse?
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I'm sure it would depend on a number of factors. Your age, health, cardiovascular condition, etc. I'm no doctor but maybe some others with more medical background can chime in here. A lot would depend on the amount of force applied, how it was applied (bone against artery vs. muscle, clothing, etc. against artery), any twisting or crushing force, the sharpness of the blow (Sensei's technique of "popping" the choke), all kinds of factors.

What makes chokes so dangerous for the inexperienced is that if applied correctly, very little force is needed to shut off blood flow. It's easy to overestimate.
 
One big thing that I haven't seen mentioned, or at least not directly, is to try and remain calm. A lot of times the choke isn't secured and "sunk" from the very beginning. It takes a little time and often a mistake by the person being choked.

Staying calm and remembering to keep your chin tucked, etc. that others have mentioned can keep you breathing while you find a way out. It's not fun and it sure doesn't feel good, like others have said, but that is where the practice comes in.
 
If someone of equal size and power sinks a carotid choke hold on you, you are probably screwed.There are some exceptions, I'm sure but my opinion is that if you are armed, you have a few seconds to get to cutting or shooting.It's life and death.
 
I was curious, if someone's strangling you, how likely is it that a carotid artery will collapse?
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I don't think that the artery is going to collapse unless they victim's blood pressure bottoms out.
I'm not a vascular surgeon, but I do provide radiography for vascular cases in surgery.
And I've seen arteries clamped off for quite some time....but when they're unclamped, the blood flows just fine (if the surgeon did his job right).
 
I was curious, if someone's strangling you, how likely is it that a carotid artery will collapse? If you do knock them off you, is there anything you can do about a collapsed cartoid artery?
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You are more likely to have an injured trachea vs a collapsed carotid (this can happen when turning into the choke).

For those who want to flop onto your backs or attempt a rear headbutt, I can only say thank you and good night. Slamming down from behind will allow me to put in my hooks, and further control you (the drop isn't large enough to make me let go). Headbutting opens your neck up, and allows me to slip the arm deeper. A small fixed blade knife would probably be your best bet (outside of training).

I have choked people out before, and it comes on in seconds (I think my fastest was around 4 seconds). I haven't gone out yet, but have been extremely close a couple times. For blood chokes, it starts with tunnel vision and sound slows way down. People who have been choked out are often very disoriented, and don't remember what just happened.

As an aside, sport coat and suit jacket collars can easily be used like the collar on a gi to choke people (both blood and air chokes). Tshirts aren't usually stiff enough to maintain a choke. The best thing a person could do, is get training that actively tests your abilities (compliant training doesn't give a realistic example of what actually happens).
 
well i guess in this situation poking eyes would be ok since they are already trying to kill you
but i wouldnt recommend it for some trying less than lethal force on you if they are good enough that that is your only option youll only anger them worse
 
You're a bad man but everybody else let go after their nose broke and they started spitting teeth.
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Nope not bad, but if done right (a big if) when you choke someone you are very close to their head. It is difficult to get enough momentum to break teeth and noses. Bloody nose or cut lip? Sure, but you have to really be hauling to break the nose or teeth.

(This was my 666th post, maybe I am bad - or just evil, "Like the froooits of the Devil. EEEEvilll.")
 
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