Seller shipped to buyer, not FFL. What to do?

[lsudave]

I bought some handguns on Ward's Collectibles. After winning, they had me contact my receiving FFL. Afterwards both parties acknowledged they were in contact and exchanged info.

Today I get my UPS tracking info, and UPS says it is shipping to my address tomorrow (at least the email I received says that's where it is going). A call to UPS confirms that. I will be working, my son will be home. I have instructed him not to sign for anything, but if they just drop it off, what do I do? I'm telling my son to bring it to the FFL unopened, and to say "my father purchased something, and it was supposed to be shipped to you. It was delivered to our house by mistake. It needs to be checked in, my father will come up and sign for it tomorrow"

Is this correct? Are we at any risk here?
edit to add- it is across state lines.

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

So UPS must be on some type of drugs or something cause we are an FFL and they refuse to set up an account for us to ship guns and ammo, yet they just ship a actual gun to your non FFL address?? Man I would be raising heck with their customer service and ATF for improper handling of firearms.

 

[lsudave]

So UPS must be on some type of drugs or something cause we are an FFL and they refuse to set up an account for us to ship guns and ammo, yet they just ship a actual gun to your non FFL address?? Man I would be raising heck with their customer service and ATF for improper handling of firearms.

I called UPS and got an operator on the phone (which was hard to do), and tried my best to explain it, to get them to change the destination. They said they can't do it, the seller has locked in where the gun ships. I sent an email to them, after calling them and not getting an answer. I hope they get it and respond in time to contact UPS and correct it.

I don't mind avoiding the transfer fee... but that isn't my issue. I'm not a licensed FFL, not even a C&R (and while some of this order could be C&R, not all of it is). I have a credit card transaction record of purchase, and my information is with the seller as the buyer.
Their website does say for bidders to make arrangements for items requiring FFLs, but I did that. I even sent a group email to the auction company and the receiving FFL, stating what was needed by each, and called the FFL. They told me all was good, everything was lined up. I specified that the item be addressed to me (name), at said address (FFL shop). At one point I had a bid on an extra magazine and had inquired if it could be stuck in the box with the firearms to save shipping, they said yeah but it would need to go to the FFL... so they understood that

I just want to be sure I don't get roped into some chargeable offense. I did this on the up-and-up, and it makes me nervous.

 

[DoubleMag]

Sounds like you also have a chain of evidence phone calls etc. that you are concerned, and attempting to fix someone else' goofs. At multiple levels.

I do not see how anyone can be held liable for someone else goofs but, this is a weird and agregious Admin we are dealing with now.

 

[Navy87Guy]

Before roping your son into something, have you called the FFL that’s supposed to receive it? Will he even accept a “walk in” package?

I think before I knowingly let someone receive an illegal shipment, I would just refuse to accept delivery and let it go back to the Seller. This is his mess…let him deal with it.

 

[Old_Grouch]

I suggest calling the ATF and asking them what to do. They are the one ones most likely (not assured, but most likely) to have the right advice.
Your idea of refusing delivery if possible is probably the safest.
This is entirely on the person who generated the shipping label. UPS has no way of knowing what's in the package.

 

[Navy87Guy]

UPS has no way of knowing what's in the package.

Except, by law, the shipper has to declare the firearm to the common carrier:

§ 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.
(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped

And since the OP has notified UPS that the shipment contains a firearm and he is not an FFL, they would also be in violation of Federal law (27 CFR § 478.31) if they deliver to him:

(c.) No common or contract carrier shall transport or deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge or reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or receipt thereof would be in violation of any provision of this part

 

[P89DCSS]

I'd keep quiet and take the package unopened to the ffl. Then do the 4473 dance.

 

[mavracer]

I had a similar thing happen with a suppressor. Called the SOT and he let me bring it to him and then he called the ATF about the mix up.

 

[dogtown tom]

I bought some handguns on Ward's Collectibles. After winning, they had me contact my receiving FFL. Afterwards both parties acknowledged they were in contact and exchanged info.

Today I get my UPS tracking info, and UPS says it is shipping to my address tomorrow (at least the email I received says that's where it is going). A call to UPS confirms that. I will be working, my son will be home. I have instructed him not to sign for anything, but if they just drop it off, what do I do? I'm telling my son to bring it to the FFL unopened, and to say "my father purchased something, and it was supposed to be shipped to you. It was delivered to our house by mistake. It needs to be checked in, my father will come up and sign for it tomorrow"

Is this correct? Are we at any risk here?
edit to add- it is across state lines.

It's a violation of federal law for that seller to ship directly to you.
Just refuse delivery and let the seller reship to your FFL.
If the UPS driver leaves it on your porch without getting a signature you get to choose between calling UPS to pick it up or taking it to your FFL.

 

[dogtown tom]

So UPS must be on some type of drugs or something cause we are an FFL and they refuse to set up an account for us to ship guns and ammo, yet they just ship a actual gun to your non FFL address?? Man I would be raising heck with their customer service and ATF for improper handling of firearms.

Why do they refuse?
It was a bit more hassle than I wanted, but getting my firearm shipping account with UPS wasn't difficult.

 

[dogtown tom]

..... They told me all was good, everything was lined up. I specified that the item be addressed to me (name), at said address (FFL shop). At one point I had a bid on an extra magazine and had inquired if it could be stuck in the box with the firearms to save shipping, they said yeah but it would need to go to the FFL... so they understood that

I just want to be sure I don't get roped into some chargeable offense. I did this on the up-and-up, and it makes me nervous.

You haven't done anything wrong. The seller messed up and it happens to me about once a year.

It IS a violation of federal law for the seller shipping interstate to a nonlicensee and a violation on you for taking possession.
Just don't open the box.

 

[tarosean]

I'd keep quiet

I think its a little too late for that..

 

[dogtown tom]

I suggest calling the ATF and asking them what to do. They are the one ones most likely (not assured, but most likely) to have the right advice.

Nope. ATF will not be helpful.
ATF will see this as a violation, seize and destroy the gun, issue a press release on getting a dangerous gun off the streets, demonize the seller, cause UPS to be more restrictive and in general it complicates a simple problem that has a simple solution.

Your idea of refusing delivery if possible is probably the safest.

This is entirely on the person who generated the shipping label. UPS has no way of knowing what's in the package.

This.

 

[Rule3]

I bought some handguns on Ward's Collectibles. After winning, they had me contact my receiving FFL. Afterwards both parties acknowledged they were in contact and exchanged info.

Today I get my UPS tracking info, and UPS says it is shipping to my address tomorrow (at least the email I received says that's where it is going). A call to UPS confirms that. I will be working, my son will be home. I have instructed him not to sign for anything, but if they just drop it off, what do I do? I'm telling my son to bring it to the FFL unopened, and to say "my father purchased something, and it was supposed to be shipped to you. It was delivered to our house by mistake. It needs to be checked in, my father will come up and sign for it tomorrow"

Is this correct? Are we at any risk here?
edit to add- it is across state lines.

Gee, why don't you contact WARDS and talk to them?? If they messed up they might be able to stop the delivery.

 

[Gordon]

I called UPS and got an operator on the phone (which was hard to do), and tried my best to explain it, to get them to change the destination. They said they can't do it, the seller has locked in where the gun ships. I sent an email to them, after calling them and not getting an answer. I hope they get it and respond in time to contact UPS and correct it.

I don't mind avoiding the transfer fee... but that isn't my issue. I'm not a licensed FFL, not even a C&R (and while some of this order could be C&R, not all of it is). I have a credit card transaction record of purchase, and my information is with the seller as the buyer.
Their website does say for bidders to make arrangements for items requiring FFLs, but I did that. I even sent a group email to the auction company and the receiving FFL, stating what was needed by each, and called the FFL. They told me all was good, everything was lined up. I specified that the item be addressed to me (name), at said address (FFL shop). At one point I had a bid on an extra magazine and had inquired if it could be stuck in the box with the firearms to save shipping, they said yeah but it would need to go to the FFL... so they understood that

I just want to be sure I don't get roped into some chargeable offense. I did this on the up-and-up, and it makes me nervous.

Document everything .

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

Why do they refuse?
It was a bit more hassle than I wanted, but getting my firearm shipping account with UPS wasn't difficult.

They won't return our calls at all. We have tried to call them to figure out what is going on but they keep saying they have to have someone from corporate call us back and they never do.

 

[unspellable]

Diverting a shipment from one address to another is a standard practice. I've done it. You have to catch it before delivery though. By now, that's probably happened. Seems to me the fix is take the unopened package to your FFL.

 

[Old_Grouch]

Except, by law, the shipper has to declare the firearm to the common carrier:

I'm quite aware of the law but, as the sender ignored the law that says you can't ship to an individual I doubt he cared all that much about the one that requires notification.

Nope. ATF will not be helpful.

Well, I did say "not assured" but most likely to have the right advice. I was being generous.
We get the wrong answer to policy and law questions rather frequently. Often, if you ask 2 agents the same question you'll get 3 answers.

 

[shafter]

I wouldn't get my son involved.

 

[dogtown tom]

They won't return our calls at all. We have tried to call them to figure out what is going on but they keep saying they have to have someone from corporate call us back and they never do.

check your IM's

 

[Balrog]

You haven't done anything wrong. The seller messed up and it happens to me about once a year.

It IS a violation of federal law for the seller shipping interstate to a nonlicensee and a violation on you for taking possession.
Just don't open the box.

Do you have a reference to law that says the receiver of the package violates the law if he receives a gun directly? I don't doubt it, just would like to see how that law is worded.

If for example, I came home tomorrow and found a gun on my front door step, and I just kept it, am I violating the law? I didn't ask for it to be put on my doorstep.

 

[giggitygiggity]

Gee, why don't you contact WARDS and talk to them?? If they messed up they might be able to stop the delivery.

I think this is the answer or at least the first step. Some carriers (depending on the nuances of the shipping method used) allow shippers and/or recipients to modify the delivery address, even after the package ships. I would reach out and see if they can redirect its delivery to your FFL.

If this is not possible, I’d let them know that you’ll be refusing delivery. Not that you necessarily owe them a heads up, but doing so will likely slow them to take action to reship your package sooner than if they just receive a package that they just sent, which is likely to elicit confusion on their part and likely to further delay your lawful receipt.

 

[JohnKSa]

If for example, I came home tomorrow and found a gun on my front door step, and I just kept it, am I violating the law? I didn't ask for it to be put on my doorstep.

There is the potential for serious legal jeopardy on the part of the person receiving the shipment and at this point a lot of people know about what is going on. Way too many for the buyer to pretend nothing happened and just hope it will all go away. The OP has been given advice by an FFL. Here's the law:

US Code Title 18 Section 922

Sec. 922. Unlawful acts​

STATUTE​

(a) It shall be unlawful -​

...​

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...​

 

[lsudave]

So, update:

I emailed Ward's, when I posted this thread last night. It pushed the bubble time-wise... I am in Central time, they are in Oregon (Pacific time).

Luckily, they caught it just in time. It was on the truck to be delivered, and was redirected at the last moment. Will go to the shop tomorrow.