Seller shipped to buyer, not FFL. What to do?

[lsudave]

Thanks everyone for feedback and comments. It was a weird, stressful event. I would have liked UPS to give me more advance notice... Oregon to Louisiana, you'd expect tracking to be more than Label Created > Item arrived in Your Town, delivery planned tomorrow.

There is the potential for serious legal jeopardy on the part of the person receiving the shipment and at this point a lot of people know about what is going on. Way too many for the buyer to pretend nothing happened and just hope it will all go away. The OP has been given advice by an FFL. Here's the law:

US Code Title 18 Section 922

Sec. 922. Unlawful acts​

STATUTE​

(a) It shall be unlawful -​

...​

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...​

That's important info to know. Don't sign, and if you find a package, call UPS to come get it.

 

[MikeInOr]

I'd keep quiet and take the package unopened to the ffl. Then do the 4473 dance.

This is exactly what I would do too. This should be plenty to CYA.

 

[Balrog]

There is the potential for serious legal jeopardy on the part of the person receiving the shipment and at this point a lot of people know about what is going on. Way too many for the buyer to pretend nothing happened and just hope it will all go away. The OP has been given advice by an FFL. Here's the law:

US Code Title 18 Section 922

Sec. 922. Unlawful acts​

STATUTE​

(a) It shall be unlawful -​

...​

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...​

Thanks.
So if a random package containing a firearm shows up from out of state, its a crime to receive it. What if the package is from within the same state, or if you don't know where it came from?

None of that has ever happened to me, just wondering.

Also, I think it is confusing what receives mean. If the package is dropped off, I open it, and find a gun, seems like I have received it.

 

[dogtown tom]

Thanks.
So if a random package containing a firearm shows up from out of state, its a crime to receive it. What if the package is from within the same state, or if you don't know where it came from?

Federal law does not require an FFL for a transfer between residents of the same state.
Ex. A guy in El Paso ships or hands you a gun, you are in compliance with federal law.....as long as you reside in Texas and not otherwise prohibited.
But, if a guy from Texarkana, AR drives to a Texarkana, TX post office and mails you a firearm....thats a felony. He is not a resident of Texas.

None of that has ever happened to me, just wondering.
Also, I think it is confusing what receives mean. If the package is dropped off, I open it, and find a gun, seems like I have received it.

It means you take possession.
"These aren't my pants officer!"

 

[lsudave]

So a happy ending

UPS delivered to the shop 3pm local time (per my tracking). I called them, they told me they were checking stuff in, and it would be about an hr or so, and store closes at 6pm. So we took a walk around the block, and then got in the truck and headed that way. About 5 minutes away from the store, they called me to confirm it was checked in, and I could come fill out the "paperwork" (I will explain why I put that in quotes in a bit).

We arrived and look it over, very nice. The guy starts entering info, and then asks if my ph number is the same. I say yes, and he sends me a link- I create a login, and then I do the entire 4473 on my phone! Last time, it was on an iPad, this time I'm fighting 'old man eyes' and fat fingers to do everything. Jeez, I miss paper, but that's the world we live in now.

We wander about the shop, it's a pawn shop so we look at tools, ladders, stuff like that. About 15 minutes later, a girl behind the counter calls my name out and tells me I've been proceeded.

3 pistols, all Astra.

• An A90 in 45acp, still in New in Box condition, in the box. Styrofoam box with Interarms cardboard sleeve, serials match. The gun still has the runny brown oil from shipping, blue finish is immaculate. Not a spot of carbon or wear.
• A pair of Model 1921/400's. One is early, in the 13xxx range, with a Carabineros crest on the barrel, and plastic (bakelite I guess) grips. Interior of the gun is in the white. The other is 75xxx, (worn) wood grips, and has been refinished- the interior is blued. This second one has a 9mm/.38 stamp on the barrel, my not-so-thorough dating puts it mid 1930s, still before the Spanish Civil War.
• The winning bids were $158 on the A90, $210 on the Carabineros 400, $200 on the other 400. I am very pleased, I have 9mm Largo ammo (and 45acp too!). I have the 400 mags in my ultrasonic cleaner right now, they were grungy around the springs.

I can't wait to take these to the range, I also have a recently acquired SACM 1935A with some 7.65 Longue ammo to try out.

 

[JohnKSa]

So if a random package containing a firearm shows up from out of state, its a crime to receive it. What if the package is from within the same state, or if you don't know where it came from?

That's not what the statute says.

It shall be unlawful -
...
(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to ... receive in the State where he resides ... any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State...

The crime is committed when a person "purchased or otherwise obtained <a firearm> outside <the> State where he resides" and then "receive<d it> in the State where he resides".

If you don't know where it came from, then obviously you didn't purchase it or obtain it outside of the state where you reside and so only one of the two conditions in the law is satisfied.

That said, you would want to immediately contact the authorities to let them know that there's been some kind of mixup--you know, like an innocent person would if a gun suddenly showed up in a package on their doorstep without them knowing about it in advance. The gun will almost certainly eventually be tracked to you and it would be best if you've already taken care of business long before it gets to that stage.

 

[Charlie Martinez]

Although clearly this is a mistake by the seller how does this situation differ from purchasing a gun from a private individual where an FFL is not required by either party?

 

[dogtown tom]

Although clearly this is a mistake by the seller how does this situation differ from purchasing a gun from a private individual where an FFL is not required by either party?

Because in the OP's case an FFL transfer IS required.
Thats why the relevant cites from federal law are posted above.

 

[lsudave]

Although clearly this is a mistake by the seller how does this situation differ from purchasing a gun from a private individual where an FFL is not required by either party?

Well, the seller is clearly documented as residing in one state, and I live in another. And I clearly didn't buy these guns at a local shop, gun show, or face-to-face. They documented the serial numbers, which are present on photos posted on the auction site. And I have a paper (electronic) trail documenting quite in detail that I purchased them. It states in my purchase agreement that I need to have an FFL receive them from me, unless I live close by and come to pick them up. Even were I to have driven up there, I don't think I could take them without establishing residence.
That makes it an interstate sale, and rules apply there.

 

[12Bravo20]

@lsudave I'm glad things worked out for you. That could have been a big mess.

 

[dweis]

I think the seller gets all the blame in your case. You have done nothing wrong, have tried to rectify the error of the seller, and are trying very hard to do the right thing. You’re clean. You have documented your actions herein. Print it out and save it in case you need a contemporaneous record. You bought he gun and have a right to take possession of it. The FFL burden was the seller’s not yours. Enjoy your newly acquired gun.

 

[dogtown tom]

I think the seller gets all the blame in your case. You have done nothing wrong, have tried to rectify the error of the seller, and are trying very hard to do the right thing. You’re clean. You have documented your actions herein. Print it out and save it in case you need a contemporaneous record. You bought he gun and have a right to take possession of it. The FFL burden was the seller’s not yours. Enjoy your newly acquired gun.

Wholly and completely wrong and the reasons are repeated several times in this thread.
Before giving advice that would cause a fellow forum member to be in violation of federal law.......you need to do some reading.

 

[JohnKSa]

Correct. As mentioned, and per federal law cited in the thread, had the buyer simply taken possession on delivery, he would be breaking federal law. Once it came to light, he could lose, not only his right to that firearm, but also his right to own any firearms ever again. In addition he could be fined and/or sentenced to not more than 10 years in federal prison.

Pretty serious stuff. It's best not to wing it and important not to give advice without knowing the score when getting it wrong could cost someone their firearms rights and around a decade of their life.

 

[Styx]

I think the seller gets all the blame in your case. You have done nothing wrong, have tried to rectify the error of the seller, and are trying very hard to do the right thing. You’re clean. You have documented your actions herein. Print it out and save it in case you need a contemporaneous record. You bought he gun and have a right to take possession of it. The FFL burden was the seller’s not yours. Enjoy your newly acquired gun.

No. Just no.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I think the thread has run its course. If someone has a good reason to re-open it, PM me, and I’ll consider it.