Selling to someone with an out of state DL?

[tluxtele]

In NC the law is they need to be a resident of the state with a NC DL and they need to either have a CC permit or a handgun purchase permit from their local sheriff.

Someone contacted me wanting to buy a handgun I have for sale. He said he's in the military and has an Alabama DL. I've never run into this. How does this work? I guess I could solve this buy meeting at an FFL and have them handle everything but that's just added hassle and money.

Thoughts?

 

[Arkansas Paul]

North Carolina requires you to have a valid DL AND either a CC permit or a purchase permit from a local sheriff to purchase a handgun?

I admit I am not knowledgable on NC gun laws but I would have thought I would have heard of this. Wow. I don't know how I've been in the dark so long.

 

[Art Eatman]

Any transfer of any type of firearm to an out-of-state ID must go through a licensed FFL that is located in that person's home state.

MAYBE for military on permanent assignment, a local FFL could do the deal. But I don't know for sure.

 

[herrwalther]

If he can produce orders that place him on permanent or an assignment length that meets most state residency requirements (ie 30 days), that should meet the residency requirements for the state. I have bought firearms on base with an out of state DL but a private sale is a grey area that I didn't feel like dealing with when I hopped around.

 

[rromeo]

I can't say for NC, but permanent orders satisfy the federal requirement for residency, as well as Virginia. Your state and local laws may be different.

 

[tsidorus]

Purchase Permit

Unless something has changed since I was stationed in NC in 2013 he should have no trouble getting a purchase permit just like everyone else in the state. I always had one or two along with my orders in my car... Just in case...

-Tsi

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Sorry this is a little off topic for the OP's question, but do you have to get a purchase permit for each handgun you buy, or just get one and then you can buy all you want?

 

[tluxtele]

Purchase permit for each one. Part of the reason I got a CCP. It's a pain in the rump and the law was very close to being changed but the sheriffs lobbied to keep it as is. We don't have to do it for riffles, just handguns.

BTW, thanks guys. It sounds like there is a work around for military people. I've just never run into this.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I'm out right now and will provide detail later. However, one is at significant legal risk under federal law if he transfers a gun directly to someone he knows or has reasonable cause to believe is not a resident of his State.

 

[Coyote3855]

As usual, Frank is correct and right on the money. I would want proof the buyer is a resident of my state. If I had any concerns, I would not sell. We have an Air Force base near here. I'm not sure I would sell to an airman even if he produced his orders. I'd pick up the FFL fee to have a qualified person make that call.

 

[tluxtele]

Well, I called my local sheriff sense there seemed to be a bit of conflict here. They said if the purchaser has the purchase permit from their sheriff then all is good. He suggested for my peace of mind to ask to see his military ID to confirm it but he didn't seem to give it a second thought.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Okay, let's look at federal law (the Gun Control Act of 1968, or GCA68):

1. Under 18 USC 922(a)(5):

   (a) It shall be unlawful—
   ....
   
   (5)for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ....who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides;

   
   
2. Having a driver's license from a different State will be considered "reasonable cause to believe" that the transferee doesn't reside in the transferor's State of residence. He might, but having an out-of-state driver's license would certainly require further inquiry to firm establish the transferee's proper State of residence for the purposes of GCA68.
   
   
3. However, for the purposes of GCA68 (27 CFR 478.11):

   ...If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located,....

   
   
4. But then the questions for the transferor would be (1) whether the transferor has actually verified the transferee's orders; (2) whether the transferor appropriately assured himself that the transferee's permanent duty station is indeed the transferor's State of residence; and (3) whether the transferor has documented his verification of the transferee's State or residence.
   
   
5. Violating CGA68 can result in up to five years in federal prison and a lifetime loss of gun rights.

....if the purchaser has the purchase permit from their sheriff then all is good....

If the sheriff has issued a purchase permit, he should have validated the transferee's State of residence. That might help get the transferor off the hook. But it's been my experience that state or local law enforcement is a lousy source of information on federal law.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Orders make the military person a resident of the state they are assigned to for this purpose. NC complicates it with their ancient Jim Crow law (amazed the libs never get upset about racist/classist laws when they don't fit their agenda).

Article here on the NC laws so that you can see it's just not me that view them as such; http://truthvoice.com/2015/11/the-unconstitutionality-and-blatant-racism-of-north-carolina-gun-laws/

 

[gc70]

If the sheriff has issued a purchase permit, he should have validated the transferee's State of residence.

Pistol Purchase Permits and Concealed Handgun Permits are valid for five years in North Carolina. While sheriffs verify residence when a permit is issued, five years is plenty of time for a person to change residence.

...If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located,....

It may be more challenging when dealing with a member of the military, but it is still the seller's responsibility to verify the buyer's current state of residence.

 

[Snyper]

If he's stationed in NC, he is a "resident" of NC, and if the has a valid purchase permit the Sheriff has already vetted him.

 

[Doc7]

Any transfer of any type of firearm to an out-of-state ID must go through a licensed FFL that is located in that person's home state.

Is this correct? I was under the impression after reading some that I could sell a rifle to an NC resident through a VA FFL? The NC law I read stated they could buy a rifle in another state if they went through a NICS check.

 

[dogmush]

Is this correct? I was under the impression after reading some that I could sell a rifle to an NC resident through a VA FFL? The NC law I read stated they could buy a rifle in another state if they went through a NICS check.

Federal law allows one to buy a rifle from an FFL in a neighboring state. Not all state laws do.

OP, Are you familiar enough with military orders to know from looking at them if they are PCS or TDY? Or what the duty station is? (As opposed to H.O.R.)

 

[pdsmith505]

Have him provide a current, active duty Military ID and a copy of his current orders.

ID will be what is known as a CAC card, looks like this:


What you are looking for in the orders is where it says something like this, with an appropriate city/state:

------- ULTIMATE ACTIVITY /M/ -------

REPORT NOT LATER THAN MAY 10 EDA: MAY 10

TO STU NAVAVSCOLSCOM PENSACOLA FL UIC: 42129

PERMANENT DUTY STATION FL, PENSACOLA

FOR TEMPORARY DUTY UNDER INSTRUCTION IN A FLYING ACC: 341

STATUS INVOLVING FLYING BSC: 99990

PRD: 1010

PERSONNEL ACCOUNTING SUPPORT: PERSUPPDET PENSACOLA UIC: 43081

- REPORT NOT LATER THAN 0730 07-MAY-2010.

- REPORT NOT EARLIER THAN 30-APR-2010 .

There will also be a "PRD" with a month and a year (EX: 1010 for October of 2010). Make sure report by date and PRD date span the current date.

If you have both of those, I think that you would have "reasonable cause to believe" that, for the purposes of purchasing a firearm, the buyer is a resident of your state. Mind you, I am not a Lawyer, but those two pieces of information have worked for me at gun shops in every state I've been in (which is handy, because my NM DL has been past it's expired date for some time now...).

 

[Jim K]

I would not take a chance when misreading orders or not knowing a complex law could get me in jail. If he wants the gun, take him to your local dealer and go through the transfer process the same as if you were selling the gun to the dealer and he was selling it to the GI. Sure, it will cost a few bucks, but it could cost a lot more if you do an illegal sale and the friendly GI "buyer" turns out to have a badge that reads ATF.

Jim

 

[rromeo]

Federal law allows one to buy a rifle from an FFL in a neighboring state. Not all state laws do.

Some states may require that you live next door, but federal law does not. As a Virginia resident I have bought shotguns from dealers and walked out the door in Florida, Kansas, and Wisconsin.

 

[Sam1911]

Federal law allows one to buy a rifle from an FFL in a neighboring state. Not all state laws do.

Some states may require that you live next door, but federal law does not.

That federal requirement ended with FOPA in 1986.

 

[X-Rap]

So with regards to residency and permanent duty station it seems that it qualifies as residency for handgun purchases.
How does that affect their permanent residence in their home state?
Can a member of the military while at home still purchase a handgun with their home state issued drivers license?
This situation could also cause some issues with regards to gun permits but that would be a state matter rather than federal unless the member would run afoul of the law and find himself charged with a felony.

 

[yugorpk]

So with regards to residency and permanent duty station it seems that it qualifies as residency for handgun purchases.
How does that affect their permanent residence in their home state?
Can a member of the military while at home still purchase a handgun with their home state issued drivers license?
This situation could also cause some issues with regards to gun permits but that would be a state matter rather than federal unless the member would run afoul of the law and find himself charged with a felony.

Legally no. The servicemember must actually reside in the state of origin to buy a handgun in that state. There are exceptions if he is stationed in one state and lives in a neighboring state but generally the service member must claim his permanent duty station state as his state of residence for firearms purchases even if he retains ID or a drivers license from his home state and pays taxes to that state. I know . It sucks and people break that law all the time.