Roadwild17
Member
Becides the ability to place a lot of lead on target verry quickly, can anyone think of any advantages that a auto would have over a pump?
Thanx,
Gavin
Thanx,
Gavin
Semi Auto Advantages for HD?
- Thread starter Roadwild17
- Start date
- Status
Less recoil for smaller-framed shooters, or recoil-sensitive shooters, or those unable to physically manipulate a pump...
I like it (1187 and/or 1100) for quicker shot recovery, and recoil management for me or my wife, and soon to be my daughter.
The key to Semi-Auto HD shotguns in my mind are:
1. Weapon Reliability
2. Ammo Selection
3. See 1
I use my same 21" bbl 1187 and 1100 for hunting, and regular HD practice with 00Buck. I have spent a lot of time learning it's limitations and how I can induce malfunctions, and train myself to limit those activities or modify the equipment to minimize same.
My 1187 works extremely well with low-recoil 00Buck and all hunting 3" shells. The 1100 is just as reliable with the 00Buck on down to the promo 2-3/4 shells.
I like it (1187 and/or 1100) for quicker shot recovery, and recoil management for me or my wife, and soon to be my daughter.
The key to Semi-Auto HD shotguns in my mind are:
1. Weapon Reliability
2. Ammo Selection
3. See 1
I use my same 21" bbl 1187 and 1100 for hunting, and regular HD practice with 00Buck. I have spent a lot of time learning it's limitations and how I can induce malfunctions, and train myself to limit those activities or modify the equipment to minimize same.
My 1187 works extremely well with low-recoil 00Buck and all hunting 3" shells. The 1100 is just as reliable with the 00Buck on down to the promo 2-3/4 shells.
Shrinkmd
Member
Which is which?
I still can't get the difference between the 1100 and 11-87. If you want to shoot clays and maybe hunt with it, which is "better"?
I still can't get the difference between the 1100 and 11-87. If you want to shoot clays and maybe hunt with it, which is "better"?
My uses:
1100 = 2-3/4" chamber
1187 = 3'' chamber - will chamber and shoot 2-3/4'' or 3"
>>
1100 for clays and dove - 2-3/4" chamber
1187 for dove (heavy 2-3/4 loads), duck, geese, crane, - 3" chamber (also feeds the heavy 2-3/4'' in my barrel. Other 1187s with field barrels feed and shoot the 2-3/4 AA round fine. My barrel is the Special Purpose Rifle Sighted Rem Choke barrel - it's picky with 2-3/4")
I use the 1187 for 3" steel, and don't think I have problems with duck, geese and crane limits and 3" shells. No 3.5" for me...
1100 = 2-3/4" chamber
1187 = 3'' chamber - will chamber and shoot 2-3/4'' or 3"
>>
1100 for clays and dove - 2-3/4" chamber
1187 for dove (heavy 2-3/4 loads), duck, geese, crane, - 3" chamber (also feeds the heavy 2-3/4'' in my barrel. Other 1187s with field barrels feed and shoot the 2-3/4 AA round fine. My barrel is the Special Purpose Rifle Sighted Rem Choke barrel - it's picky with 2-3/4")
I use the 1187 for 3" steel, and don't think I have problems with duck, geese and crane limits and 3" shells. No 3.5" for me...
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DHart
Member
I have two semi-auto defense shotguns at this point, an 1100CM and a Winchester SX2 Practical Mk I, with an FN SLP (SX2 action) on the way.
I think any of these platforms make for a superb (actually ultimate) defense weapon.
1) They are wicked fast in launching 12 ga. 00 buckshot.. especially the SX2. The SX2 has been clocked at delivering 5 shots of Federal Classic 00 Buckshot at 5 rounds in just 1/2 second! That's mind-boggling. You can potentially empty the entire contents of the shotgun before the first empty hull even hits the deck.
2) They require attention on just two things: target acquisition and pulling the trigger. Repeat as necessary! NO need for thought or effort directed toward stroking a pump... no concern for short stroking under pressure, forgetting to pump, whatever.
3) Semi-autos are considered by some tactical shotgun trainers to be even more reliable than pumps under stress and duress because the gun's cycling is not affected by your stress or duress. Short stroking and even just plain failing to operate the pump are common reliability problems among operators of pump shotguns under the strain of training or defense.
Semi-auto shotguns, when kept well-maintained and fed apropriate ammo, have proven themselves to be superbly reliable in a defense role. They are my #1 choice in home defense. Right now... these two are my top picks:
I think any of these platforms make for a superb (actually ultimate) defense weapon.
1) They are wicked fast in launching 12 ga. 00 buckshot.. especially the SX2. The SX2 has been clocked at delivering 5 shots of Federal Classic 00 Buckshot at 5 rounds in just 1/2 second! That's mind-boggling. You can potentially empty the entire contents of the shotgun before the first empty hull even hits the deck.
2) They require attention on just two things: target acquisition and pulling the trigger. Repeat as necessary! NO need for thought or effort directed toward stroking a pump... no concern for short stroking under pressure, forgetting to pump, whatever.
3) Semi-autos are considered by some tactical shotgun trainers to be even more reliable than pumps under stress and duress because the gun's cycling is not affected by your stress or duress. Short stroking and even just plain failing to operate the pump are common reliability problems among operators of pump shotguns under the strain of training or defense.
Semi-auto shotguns, when kept well-maintained and fed apropriate ammo, have proven themselves to be superbly reliable in a defense role. They are my #1 choice in home defense. Right now... these two are my top picks:
mbs357
Member
I'll have to agree about pump vs semi.
It's tricky enough to remember to pump when you're skeet shooting, no telling how hard it'd be during a HD situation.
But then again, if you practice enough with the weapon it shouldn't be much of a problem.
It's tricky enough to remember to pump when you're skeet shooting, no telling how hard it'd be during a HD situation.
But then again, if you practice enough with the weapon it shouldn't be much of a problem.
Roadwild17
Member
Does anyone think a 22" bbl is kinda long making the gun a little "un-wildy" for HD use? I dont know, thats y im asking.
DHart
Member
mbs357.... you're so right about training & practice.... that's the key element whether the choice is pump or semi-auto.
Roadwild... 22" is as long as I would like for HD. Remember, though, if you know there's an intruder in your house, it's much wiser to retreat to a position of cover and get on the cell phone to the police.. then you can let the intruder come to you. In such a case the 22" barrel is fine. If you're an "Entry Guy" snaking around through corridors and rooms trying to flush out bad guys, 18" is more maneuverable in tight spaces. For a homeowner, I think 18" is probably ideal and 22" is within reason. The FN SLP may possibly be the perfect HD shotgun... short 13" stock, short 18" barrel, 7-shot capacity, Winchester's wicked-fast and reliable SX2 action, rugged parkerized-finish... what's not to like?
Roadwild... 22" is as long as I would like for HD. Remember, though, if you know there's an intruder in your house, it's much wiser to retreat to a position of cover and get on the cell phone to the police.. then you can let the intruder come to you. In such a case the 22" barrel is fine. If you're an "Entry Guy" snaking around through corridors and rooms trying to flush out bad guys, 18" is more maneuverable in tight spaces. For a homeowner, I think 18" is probably ideal and 22" is within reason. The FN SLP may possibly be the perfect HD shotgun... short 13" stock, short 18" barrel, 7-shot capacity, Winchester's wicked-fast and reliable SX2 action, rugged parkerized-finish... what's not to like?
strangebrew
Member
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2005
- Messages
- 56
i have a 1100 and am thinkign about using it for HD, now what ammo could i use for the utmost reliability? i was thinking about the Sellier & Bellot 9 pellets, Max. Dram Eq. from ammunition store, at $2.95 for ten rounds. Also what is Dram Eq?
DHart
Member
00 Buck is probably the single best defense load.. if your gun works well with reduced velocity 00 buck, I'd go with that. All you need to do to determine reliability is shoot a couple hundred through it... you shouldn't have any failures to function. Lots of semi-auto shooters have put tens of thousands of loads through their guns with few, if any failures. Semi-auto shotguns are proven and reliable. Some would say more reliable than pumps... if I may quote another poster:
================
Ulysses said on Shotgunworld Tactical forum:
"As a shotgunner with MANY years of experience, I started out with a pump shotgun many years ago. For about 25 years, a pump gun was all I ever used for my hunting. At that time, I swore that no automatic was ever going to be as dependable as a pump gun........ even though I had had some problems with my pump guns.
Then, I decided to try one of those danged old "jamamatic" shotguns just for kicks. Surprise, surprise. The autoloader was FAR more dependable than a pump when operating it under a stressful condition. Yes, a pump may work well when you have all day to shuck the next shell into the chamber, and it's no big deal even if the shell doesn't go smoothly into the chamber. But when the chips are down, the autoloader isn't affected by stress, excitement, forgetfullness, short stroking, or any of that stuff. Just pull the trigger and "KA-CHING" ...... she's ready to shoot again, and again, and again........
Since then, I've shot ten's of thousands of rounds through autoloaders with perhaps about a dozen failures to feed. That's a reliability rate of somewhere in excess of 99.9%! And most of those failures were due to me using reloads or trying to see how long the gun would go without a cleaning (something which I would never do with a home defense gun)."
================
Given a short-ish barrel and possibly a reduced LOP stock (13") on your 1100, I'd say it will make a superb and reliable defense shotgun. Just practice enough with it to know it runs and keep it clean!
================
Ulysses said on Shotgunworld Tactical forum:
"As a shotgunner with MANY years of experience, I started out with a pump shotgun many years ago. For about 25 years, a pump gun was all I ever used for my hunting. At that time, I swore that no automatic was ever going to be as dependable as a pump gun........ even though I had had some problems with my pump guns.
Then, I decided to try one of those danged old "jamamatic" shotguns just for kicks. Surprise, surprise. The autoloader was FAR more dependable than a pump when operating it under a stressful condition. Yes, a pump may work well when you have all day to shuck the next shell into the chamber, and it's no big deal even if the shell doesn't go smoothly into the chamber. But when the chips are down, the autoloader isn't affected by stress, excitement, forgetfullness, short stroking, or any of that stuff. Just pull the trigger and "KA-CHING" ...... she's ready to shoot again, and again, and again........
Since then, I've shot ten's of thousands of rounds through autoloaders with perhaps about a dozen failures to feed. That's a reliability rate of somewhere in excess of 99.9%! And most of those failures were due to me using reloads or trying to see how long the gun would go without a cleaning (something which I would never do with a home defense gun)."
================
Given a short-ish barrel and possibly a reduced LOP stock (13") on your 1100, I'd say it will make a superb and reliable defense shotgun. Just practice enough with it to know it runs and keep it clean!
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Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
Yeah, but there is absolutely nothing more feared than the sound of a pump
gun racking the slide back~!
gun racking the slide back~!
DHart
Member
People often mention the fear factor created by the sound of a pump racking, but I think the benefit is over-rated. The sound of a pump racking *may* create some additional trepidation, assuming it's heard, but from a tactical standpoint it usually doesn't make a lot of sense.
By racking a slide (which you can only do once for effect) you lose your element of surprise, give yourself and your position away, and alert the intruder. That may very well work to your disadvantage.
And beyond that is the fact that I wouldn't want to wait until I thought someone might hear the sound before I chamber a round.
Additionally, I like full capacity in my shotgun which means a round in the chamber and a full magazine. I want the gun in full readiness - except for the click of a safety button. There are circumstances where you may well wait too long before racking the slide and pay dearly for not being at the ready quickly enough. All in all, for myself, I think a defense-use shotgun should be ready to roll at the click of a safety.
If you know there's an intruder in your home, the smartest thing you can do, if possible, is retreat to a barricade position of some sort and use the cell phone you keep by your side at all times to call 911. If you know someone is in your house... it's best not to roam around your house looking for them as you might well come upon more people than you can possibly deal with and then you're really in deep stuff. Let the intruder(s) come to you so you have the advantage.
I think the possible benefit of the racking sound is far outweighed by other tactical considerations.
By racking a slide (which you can only do once for effect) you lose your element of surprise, give yourself and your position away, and alert the intruder. That may very well work to your disadvantage.
And beyond that is the fact that I wouldn't want to wait until I thought someone might hear the sound before I chamber a round.
Additionally, I like full capacity in my shotgun which means a round in the chamber and a full magazine. I want the gun in full readiness - except for the click of a safety button. There are circumstances where you may well wait too long before racking the slide and pay dearly for not being at the ready quickly enough. All in all, for myself, I think a defense-use shotgun should be ready to roll at the click of a safety.
If you know there's an intruder in your home, the smartest thing you can do, if possible, is retreat to a barricade position of some sort and use the cell phone you keep by your side at all times to call 911. If you know someone is in your house... it's best not to roam around your house looking for them as you might well come upon more people than you can possibly deal with and then you're really in deep stuff. Let the intruder(s) come to you so you have the advantage.
I think the possible benefit of the racking sound is far outweighed by other tactical considerations.
The sound of a pump shotgun is not a consideration for me. I would rather not advertise where I am - especially if it's dark and you have the advantage of familiarity with your house. Anyway, if you really want a menacing sound and have a semiauto, just chamber a shell. It still makes a sound...
I'm pretty comfortable with either. I've always felt the most comfortable with an 870, but would also feel comfortable with an SX2/FN, 1100/11-87 or Benelli. I will say this, though - I would only feel very comfortable with the semis after a lot of testing. Seeing some 1100s jam in the field make it hard to forget that sight...
I'm pretty comfortable with either. I've always felt the most comfortable with an 870, but would also feel comfortable with an SX2/FN, 1100/11-87 or Benelli. I will say this, though - I would only feel very comfortable with the semis after a lot of testing. Seeing some 1100s jam in the field make it hard to forget that sight...
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berettashotgun
Member
- Joined
- May 8, 2005
- Messages
- 1,149
In MY HOUSE, he/she/it will get a suprise sound- a blood splatting suprise sound. I keep a beretta 1200fp with #4 hevishot- 6 rounds and the P-14 with another 15 230gr. I'd much rather the BG feel me 
than hear the pathetic hollywood shucking sound. In MY HOUSE. Like Pachino said in the Godfather
than hear the pathetic hollywood shucking sound. In MY HOUSE. Like Pachino said in the GodfatherDHart
Member
Kestrel... you're right... a lot of testing is very important... equally so with pumps and semi-autos... you've got to do all you can to make sure the shooter and the gun can be counted on!
nitesite
Member
DHart~~
Congratulations on 1,000 posts! And that said milestone was reached while discussing a subject of which you are so enthusiastic.
Your enthusiasm is contagious!
After seeing that SX2 practical, you've got me wanting one to compare against my 590 Ghost Ring 9-shot pump. The manual of arms and all controls would be the same as my Browning Gold hunting gun, a distinct advantage methinks.
Congratulations on 1,000 posts! And that said milestone was reached while discussing a subject of which you are so enthusiastic.
Your enthusiasm is contagious!
After seeing that SX2 practical, you've got me wanting one to compare against my 590 Ghost Ring 9-shot pump. The manual of arms and all controls would be the same as my Browning Gold hunting gun, a distinct advantage methinks.
DHart
Member
nitesite... hey, good to see ya buddy... funny, I didn't even notice the 1000 mark! That's cool... thanks for the notice. If there's one thing I am, it's enthusiastic about things I enjoy and believe in... (no secret, eh?) I think you would very much enjoy having a Practical, or an FN SLP perhaps? Perfect companions to your Gold and your Mossy!
I don't know what took me so long to discover the joys of semi-auto shotguns, but I'm here now!
I think you would very much enjoy having a Practical, or an FN SLP perhaps? Perfect companions to your Gold and your Mossy!I don't know what took me so long to discover the joys of semi-auto shotguns, but I'm here now!
sigstroker
Member
If you're stuck with a pump in a prone or otherwise awkward position, you'll wish you had an autoloader.
DHart
Member
In addition to being very operable from prone or other awkward positions, gas-operated auto loaders like the Winchester SX2 and FN SLP can be fired repeatedly one handed if necessary; all situations where the pump will not work. As a test of my new FN SLP, last night I fired numerous rounds from it holding the gun down at my side two-handed and also one handed... the gun ran without a bobble of any kind being held in these ways and, being gas operated, the felt recoil when shooting one-handed wasn't that big of a deal. Not that you would choose to shoot with only one hand if you didn't need to, but if circumstances required it, you can do it with the semi-auto.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Sole Prob I've experienced while firing a pump from prone is gravel rash on elbows and not always then. Is there something I'm missing?
sm
member
I'm not bad - I'm just drawn that way.- Jessica Rabbit
Brister titled his work Shotgunning: The Art And The Science, He could not have chosen a better title.
I remember reading this work for the first time, boy do I !! I was not even finished and already had toothpicks, gum wrappers, pencils and rubber bands stuck in between pages to mark pages. Hurried scrawls in a notebook making notes. I was flipping back and forth, sneaking a peek in the index...more notes made to reference this and that...
Brister wrote of all the platforms, all the gauges, and everything else one sees asked and discussed on Internet forums. In the old days, we just did this in hardware stores, gun shops, barber shops, diners, and fillin' stations.
Why us guys were totally baffled standing in the grocery store trying to remember which soup we were told to get just moments earlier, to ease on down to find out the ladies had been discussing, arguing and about had a Cat-Fight in the Beauty Parlor over shotguns and loads...were still going at it in front of the Chicken Noodle Soup, or was that Tomato....no, no It had to be Vegetable Beef...
Ladies handle these arguments better than men by the way - they simply grab their child's hands, stick nose up in air and as the heels click on down the aisle "Only reason I said something nice about your potato salad at the Church Service Potluck Wednesday night - was because the Preacher was standing there! click,click, click, click...
Men on the other hand get all red faced, get mad, start cussing, touch the kid's back, and the kid better run to keep up. Once in the truck on the way home daddy is just a going on and badmouthing how stupid and ignorant that other fellow is and tells the kid to stay away from that other guy's kid for fear the "stupid" might rub off on the kid.
Kid ain't listening, he clearly heard mom say to get Chicken with Rice Soup - three times - dad got Alphabet Soup instead, and at no time did mom say they needed Smoked Oysters and Sardines...in Mustard no less...
I dunno, I used a Winchester Super X Model 1 for over 200k rds, used 1100s for who knows how many rounds in all 4 gauges, Beretta A 303 were special to me, the 20 ga has a special place for some reason, part is if the 1100 didn't fit a new shooter "just right" the Beretta usually did. Never had a problem with 1400s either, still think this one is the softest shooting. semi-auto shotgun. Darn right I was tickeled and grinning when Brister wrote the Super X Model 1 was the most reliable semi in his testing, and one of his favorites he used too...
But you know, It always made sense to me, this thing about 'ABSOLUTES' - never figured there was such a thing. About the only "absolute" I can come up with in living 50 yrars so far - if one ever draws a breath - someday they won't.
Shotguns ain't hard, like most things in life, we humans have to make stuff difficult.
Ninety Percent of shooting is mental, ten percent is physical. Take care of the ten percent, like gun, gun fit,correct basics and fundamentals, ammo, clothes, ...etc., and then once determined forget about it. Focus on the Mental from then on out...just continue to shoot and practice, you got the physical part nailed down, it is the mental you gotta keep working on... - paraphrased
I shot a semi in 12 ga for reduced recoil, reduced fatigue. Three barrel set for the other gauges for competition. I was going thru as much as 25K rds in 12 ga alone at the time...
Not that I couldnt' and didn't use a Pump gun, I like the pump gun event, especially doubles...
I appreciate the craftmanship of firearm period. Pride of ownership, the metallurgy - intrigued by the machine steel of the SX1, the alloy of the A303, the stamped mfg process of the 1100, metal and wood fit of my Citori's, fastest lock time of the Rem 3200, and I really wanted to take home that Webly & Scott 28 ga I got to shoot...number of guns like that over the years.
Nope, shotguns, its all good. Got folks with impairments that used to handle and shoot a lot - the 1100s work for them just fine in 20, 28 and even the .410. Detached Retinas, back, shoulder, or neck injuries. Lose some fingers and dexterity on a weak hand, wrist all out of whack, maybe just arthritis, the semi does just fine...
Mental, training, with whatever one finds works best for them. Improvise, Adapt , Overcome.
I mean yeah a bolt rifle is nice in the prone - don't mean one cannot run a Lever Gun prone- I just learnt from Mentors, Elders and ...well...yeah the Black and White Cowboy TV shows helped some...
Elliot Ness, various War Pictures, and Steve McQueen never had a problem with a Pump either...
So while the daddy is getting looked at funny upon arriving home with the wrong soup, with the kid standing next to mom looking up at her " I tried to tell 'em mom...honest".
A Gunshot rings out from out back. Just Grandma with that single shot of hers...that'll teach doves to fly over when she is hanging out the line...
Another shot rings out, Guess Grandpa used his Single shot to get rid of another feral cat out by the woodpile...
The real question remains - Just how in the heck does one keep a straight face, and keep down without choking The Smoked Oysters - with mustard- mixed in with the Alphabet Soup? Oh, and how come since sardines are fish...they are fish of some kind...anyway the sardines aint' floating like the letters in the bowl?
Maybe one of the oldtimers at the bait shop will know...
The dog won't touch it. Dog even has enough sense to sit under near the kid's chair hoping to get a scrap of the Meatloaf everyone else is eating...
Brister titled his work Shotgunning: The Art And The Science, He could not have chosen a better title.
I remember reading this work for the first time, boy do I !! I was not even finished and already had toothpicks, gum wrappers, pencils and rubber bands stuck in between pages to mark pages. Hurried scrawls in a notebook making notes. I was flipping back and forth, sneaking a peek in the index...more notes made to reference this and that...
Brister wrote of all the platforms, all the gauges, and everything else one sees asked and discussed on Internet forums. In the old days, we just did this in hardware stores, gun shops, barber shops, diners, and fillin' stations.
Why us guys were totally baffled standing in the grocery store trying to remember which soup we were told to get just moments earlier, to ease on down to find out the ladies had been discussing, arguing and about had a Cat-Fight in the Beauty Parlor over shotguns and loads...were still going at it in front of the Chicken Noodle Soup, or was that Tomato....no, no It had to be Vegetable Beef...
Ladies handle these arguments better than men by the way - they simply grab their child's hands, stick nose up in air and as the heels click on down the aisle "Only reason I said something nice about your potato salad at the Church Service Potluck Wednesday night - was because the Preacher was standing there! click,click, click, click...
Men on the other hand get all red faced, get mad, start cussing, touch the kid's back, and the kid better run to keep up. Once in the truck on the way home daddy is just a going on and badmouthing how stupid and ignorant that other fellow is and tells the kid to stay away from that other guy's kid for fear the "stupid" might rub off on the kid.
Kid ain't listening, he clearly heard mom say to get Chicken with Rice Soup - three times - dad got Alphabet Soup instead, and at no time did mom say they needed Smoked Oysters and Sardines...in Mustard no less...
I dunno, I used a Winchester Super X Model 1 for over 200k rds, used 1100s for who knows how many rounds in all 4 gauges, Beretta A 303 were special to me, the 20 ga has a special place for some reason, part is if the 1100 didn't fit a new shooter "just right" the Beretta usually did. Never had a problem with 1400s either, still think this one is the softest shooting. semi-auto shotgun. Darn right I was tickeled and grinning when Brister wrote the Super X Model 1 was the most reliable semi in his testing, and one of his favorites he used too...
But you know, It always made sense to me, this thing about 'ABSOLUTES' - never figured there was such a thing. About the only "absolute" I can come up with in living 50 yrars so far - if one ever draws a breath - someday they won't.
Shotguns ain't hard, like most things in life, we humans have to make stuff difficult.
Ninety Percent of shooting is mental, ten percent is physical. Take care of the ten percent, like gun, gun fit,correct basics and fundamentals, ammo, clothes, ...etc., and then once determined forget about it. Focus on the Mental from then on out...just continue to shoot and practice, you got the physical part nailed down, it is the mental you gotta keep working on... - paraphrased
I shot a semi in 12 ga for reduced recoil, reduced fatigue. Three barrel set for the other gauges for competition. I was going thru as much as 25K rds in 12 ga alone at the time...
Not that I couldnt' and didn't use a Pump gun, I like the pump gun event, especially doubles...
I appreciate the craftmanship of firearm period. Pride of ownership, the metallurgy - intrigued by the machine steel of the SX1, the alloy of the A303, the stamped mfg process of the 1100, metal and wood fit of my Citori's, fastest lock time of the Rem 3200, and I really wanted to take home that Webly & Scott 28 ga I got to shoot...number of guns like that over the years.
Nope, shotguns, its all good. Got folks with impairments that used to handle and shoot a lot - the 1100s work for them just fine in 20, 28 and even the .410. Detached Retinas, back, shoulder, or neck injuries. Lose some fingers and dexterity on a weak hand, wrist all out of whack, maybe just arthritis, the semi does just fine...
Mental, training, with whatever one finds works best for them. Improvise, Adapt , Overcome.
I mean yeah a bolt rifle is nice in the prone - don't mean one cannot run a Lever Gun prone- I just learnt from Mentors, Elders and ...well...yeah the Black and White Cowboy TV shows helped some...
Elliot Ness, various War Pictures, and Steve McQueen never had a problem with a Pump either...
So while the daddy is getting looked at funny upon arriving home with the wrong soup, with the kid standing next to mom looking up at her " I tried to tell 'em mom...honest".
A Gunshot rings out from out back. Just Grandma with that single shot of hers...that'll teach doves to fly over when she is hanging out the line...
Another shot rings out, Guess Grandpa used his Single shot to get rid of another feral cat out by the woodpile...
The real question remains - Just how in the heck does one keep a straight face, and keep down without choking The Smoked Oysters - with mustard- mixed in with the Alphabet Soup? Oh, and how come since sardines are fish...they are fish of some kind...anyway the sardines aint' floating like the letters in the bowl?
Maybe one of the oldtimers at the bait shop will know...
The dog won't touch it. Dog even has enough sense to sit under near the kid's chair hoping to get a scrap of the Meatloaf everyone else is eating...
With practice, a good, slick pump will be as fast in a real world scenario as an auto.
For the record, a man named Mike Kelly of the Miami, OK Pdolice Department currently holds the record for the shotgun Dozier Drill, which consists of shooting five steel silhoettes with five rounds, starting from a chamber loaded, safety on, gun at hip position.
His time is 1.72 seconds. Thats five rounds of aimed fire. His gun? An Ithaca Deerslayer.
Last time I shot the drill with my 870, i was timed at 2.93. Nowhere near as fast as Mike, but plenty fast enough.
For the record, a man named Mike Kelly of the Miami, OK Pdolice Department currently holds the record for the shotgun Dozier Drill, which consists of shooting five steel silhoettes with five rounds, starting from a chamber loaded, safety on, gun at hip position.
His time is 1.72 seconds. Thats five rounds of aimed fire. His gun? An Ithaca Deerslayer.
Last time I shot the drill with my 870, i was timed at 2.93. Nowhere near as fast as Mike, but plenty fast enough.
DHart
Member
sm... if you ain't a writer, you sure should be! Wonderful.
patrol120... pumps are good guns, no doubt about that. But to run them really well, quickly, under stress/durress/adrenalin pounding, remembering to pump, pumping with no short strokes, in awkward positions and all takes far more training, practice, and skill than doing the same with a semi.... probably more training and practice than the typical home owner is willing or able to devote.
I think due to the operational simplicity of the semi, most average folks who haven't had a lot of training and practice are able run a semi more reliably and much faster than they can run a pump. And I think most home defenders who own pumps can't or don't devote the time, energy, money, and dedication required to run a pump with total proficiency when the chips are down. But certainly, some folks can and do train thoroughly enough to be highly defense proficient with them.
Either type of shotgun, in the right hands, can get the job done, that's for sure. Given the ability to keep the gun clean and well maintained, and using ammo of proper power, I think the semi-auto is probably a little better choice for the average home defender. Their reliability and simplicity of operation is well proven. But comfort with the particular shotgun and practice is of great importance.
patrol120... pumps are good guns, no doubt about that. But to run them really well, quickly, under stress/durress/adrenalin pounding, remembering to pump, pumping with no short strokes, in awkward positions and all takes far more training, practice, and skill than doing the same with a semi.... probably more training and practice than the typical home owner is willing or able to devote.
I think due to the operational simplicity of the semi, most average folks who haven't had a lot of training and practice are able run a semi more reliably and much faster than they can run a pump. And I think most home defenders who own pumps can't or don't devote the time, energy, money, and dedication required to run a pump with total proficiency when the chips are down. But certainly, some folks can and do train thoroughly enough to be highly defense proficient with them.
Either type of shotgun, in the right hands, can get the job done, that's for sure. Given the ability to keep the gun clean and well maintained, and using ammo of proper power, I think the semi-auto is probably a little better choice for the average home defender. Their reliability and simplicity of operation is well proven. But comfort with the particular shotgun and practice is of great importance.
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