Two months ago, I went to sell my FNX-45. I’m the original owner. Deal was made but buyer pointed out the serial number was missing. So no sale. The metallic strip with the SN on the bottom of the frame had fallen off. And I don’t know where or when. And that’s apparently the only place FN puts the number. Took pistol to the dealer where I bought it. They’re negotiating with FN. FN won’t let them return the pistol. FN’s only suggestion so far is to destroy the frame and buy another frame from them. Has anyone ever heard of this happening before? Pistol was treated like a princess. Never dropped, abused, or carried.
Serial number fell off.
- Thread starter Murphster
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entropy
Member
The FNX-45 did not exist before 1968. You must either destroy the frame and part out the rest, or do as FN suggests, destroy the current frame, and buy a new frame. While I realize H&R Glock's post was tongue-in-cheek, other might not.
cslinger
Member
So what your saying is “The front just fell off”. 
Seems to me that THEY should be replacing the frame on their dime. It’s not like you the user like abused the serial number plate area.
Seems to me that THEY should be replacing the frame on their dime. It’s not like you the user like abused the serial number plate area.
WVsig
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It is my understanding that if a frame with no serial number is returned to a manufacturer that the manufacturer has to destroy it. This has come up with FN Browning Hi Powers will Browning rollmarks. They often did not adhere to the rules regarding the depth that serial numbers had to be engraved on the frame and if you stripped the original finish like hard chrome the serial number would disappear.
Part of what they are telling you is true but they should replace the frame on their dime as a defect unless they can prove it was caused by the end user.
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RetiredUSNChief
Member
The BFATE used to have a letter many years ago dealing with damaged/obliterated serial numbers on firearms and how they could be made acceptable.
I can't find that letter any more, but maybe someone else could. At any rate, the wording of the various laws has changed over the decades, and now it's different. That prior letter is worth less than the paper it was printed on.
The NFA, 26USC53, is quite explicit on the matter nowadays. Here's a link to it:
https://www.atf.gov/file/58141/download
Section 5842 Identification of firearms (starts on page 94 of the above link) says:
(a) the manufacturer shall identify each firearms by a serial number which may not be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, plus some additional stuff. If I were you in your circumstances, I'd have a beef with the manufacturer because your description of how FN affixes the serial number to their guns doesn't sound like it meets this criteria.
(b) If you possess a firearms which does not bear the serial number and other required information described in subsection (a), it shall be identified with a serial number assigned by teh Secretary and any other information the Secretary may prescribe by regulations.
One might read (b) above as meaning you can appeal to the Secretary to have a serial number assigned. HOWEVER, this may not be the case. Why?
For this we need to go to section 5861 Prohibited acts (starts on page 99):
It shall be unlawful for any person
(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered; or obliterated, or
(i) to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a serial number as required by this chapter; or
(j) to transport, deliver, or receive any firearm in interstate commerce which has not been registered as required by this chapter; or
Right now, the way the NFA is written, your pistol is not legal for you to possess. Period.
This places you in a Catch-22 situation: You have a firearm in your possession which HAD a serial number but which NO LONGER DOES. This is illegal under the section 5861.
BUT...5842 seems to have a provision which allows you to identify the firearm with a serial number....but to do this you would first have to admit to the criminal act of possessing such a firearm in the first place.
Now, the NFA dealt with a specific class of firearms. But the GCA also supports this as well. It is illegal unde 18USC922 (k) to possess any firearm which has had the manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any tiem, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
https://www.pennlago.com/are-firearms-without-serial-numbers-illegal/
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-82/pdf/STATUTE-82-Pg1213-2.pdf
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
NOW....WE CAN CALL THIS "UTTER NONSENSE" with respect to destroying the frame. HOWEVER, NONE OF US HERE ARE ATTORNEYS, AND EVEN IF WE WERE WE AREN'T YOUR ATTORNEY.
If you want to legally keep the pistol (I'm not even talking about selling/trading it now, merely possessing it), my advice to you is to seek an attorney who deals in such matters Certainly I would NOT advise contacting the BATFE outside an attorney acting as intermediary on this matter. An attorney can do so because your identity would be protected by attorney-client privilege and they would not be able to press charges for possession while you're legitimately attempting to navigate this legal morass.
I can't find that letter any more, but maybe someone else could. At any rate, the wording of the various laws has changed over the decades, and now it's different. That prior letter is worth less than the paper it was printed on.
The NFA, 26USC53, is quite explicit on the matter nowadays. Here's a link to it:
https://www.atf.gov/file/58141/download
Section 5842 Identification of firearms (starts on page 94 of the above link) says:
(a) the manufacturer shall identify each firearms by a serial number which may not be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, plus some additional stuff. If I were you in your circumstances, I'd have a beef with the manufacturer because your description of how FN affixes the serial number to their guns doesn't sound like it meets this criteria.
(b) If you possess a firearms which does not bear the serial number and other required information described in subsection (a), it shall be identified with a serial number assigned by teh Secretary and any other information the Secretary may prescribe by regulations.
One might read (b) above as meaning you can appeal to the Secretary to have a serial number assigned. HOWEVER, this may not be the case. Why?
For this we need to go to section 5861 Prohibited acts (starts on page 99):
It shall be unlawful for any person
(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered; or obliterated, or
(i) to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a serial number as required by this chapter; or
(j) to transport, deliver, or receive any firearm in interstate commerce which has not been registered as required by this chapter; or
Right now, the way the NFA is written, your pistol is not legal for you to possess. Period.
This places you in a Catch-22 situation: You have a firearm in your possession which HAD a serial number but which NO LONGER DOES. This is illegal under the section 5861.
BUT...5842 seems to have a provision which allows you to identify the firearm with a serial number....but to do this you would first have to admit to the criminal act of possessing such a firearm in the first place.
Now, the NFA dealt with a specific class of firearms. But the GCA also supports this as well. It is illegal unde 18USC922 (k) to possess any firearm which has had the manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any tiem, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
https://www.pennlago.com/are-firearms-without-serial-numbers-illegal/
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-82/pdf/STATUTE-82-Pg1213-2.pdf
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922
NOW....WE CAN CALL THIS "UTTER NONSENSE" with respect to destroying the frame. HOWEVER, NONE OF US HERE ARE ATTORNEYS, AND EVEN IF WE WERE WE AREN'T YOUR ATTORNEY.
If you want to legally keep the pistol (I'm not even talking about selling/trading it now, merely possessing it), my advice to you is to seek an attorney who deals in such matters Certainly I would NOT advise contacting the BATFE outside an attorney acting as intermediary on this matter. An attorney can do so because your identity would be protected by attorney-client privilege and they would not be able to press charges for possession while you're legitimately attempting to navigate this legal morass.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
This may be attempted, but without any legal leg to stand on with respect to the laws I cited above, FN will do nothing about this if for no other reason than the laws CLEARLY say they cannot even RECEIVE the pistol legally now.
I agree that this is BS with respect to how the serial number is affixed to the frame...it certainly doesn't seem to meet the requirements of section 5842 Identification of firearms, paragraph (a) of 26USC53 (NFA).
I wish I had taken a picture before giving it to my dealer. I don’t how the tag was originally attached (aside from not very well). What remained was a thin rectangular tag-sized hole. I don’t know if it was molded into the plastic or what. I never paid any attention to it - until it left. Thanks to all who responded. As time progresses, I think my chances at a cost-free solution are dimming. I agree with the assessment that just possessing the darn thing is now illegal. It has been a learning experience however.
.455_Hunter
Member
From on-line images, it looks like they use a non-identifiable method of securing the data plate (adhesive?). Other guns at least have visible polymer rivets.
Just looked at one of mine. It has the metal looking tape id tag. But it is recessed into the bottom rail and that rail seems to go over the edge of the id tag. They are kinda like to ids put on office equipment.
How it could come off without a lot of effort is beyond me.???
Riomouse911
Member
I think the Glock tab has ends that are molded into the frame. A missing tab is a rarity, sorry you’ve run into this mess OP .
Keep us informed about the results of your efforts.
Stay safe.
. Keep us informed about the results of your efforts.
Stay safe.
Bazoo
Member
Do you know what the serial number was? That could possibly give you a little wiggle room. If I'm not mistaken, you can put the serial number in another spot on a gun if you're going to alter the gun such that the original would be covered or destroyed.
I'd call a local gunsmith and tell him, and see if he knows if the above is correct.
Also, have you looked for the plate? Maybe it could be found in the box? In a gun rug, safe, gun cleaning area? On the range table?
I'd call a local gunsmith and tell him, and see if he knows if the above is correct.
Also, have you looked for the plate? Maybe it could be found in the box? In a gun rug, safe, gun cleaning area? On the range table?
HPJeep
Member
I was going to ask if you registered your gun with FN after purchasing but after reading the above it is a moot point. Would be cheaper to buy a new frame than a lawyer.
Patocazador
Member
I don't know what it takes to be a "manufacturer" of a firearm but the license might be fairly cheap. You could "manufacture" this "altered" firearm and have them (ATF?) assign a serial number to it. It would most likely involve some machining and removal of the previous manufacturer's ID.
There was a two month lapse between the last time I fired it and discovering the missing SN. Searched the safe, work area, pistol cases etc. multiple times. Presuming it fell off at my outdoor range and I didn’t notice it while cleaning it. I think for my peace of mind (and continued freedom) I’ll destroy the frame. Also don’t want the dealer to be put in a bad situation by trying to help. Thanks again for everyone’s input.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
The problem with relocating the serial number is that it's MISSING. Once it's missing from the gun, then there's nothing to say anything you may find actually belongs on the gun.
If the actual tag can be found...perhaps that will be enough to have some kind of corrective action taken.
It's a painfully legal quandary.
The Glockodile
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This is a genuinely interesting thread.
Never thought about this happening.
Can we see some pictures, though?
I remember this time when some FNX - 45 Tacticals were released with Play - Doh frames (see above).
If that can happen, it's not inconceivable that the serial number tag could fall off, too...
The Glockodile
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Good idea, that may help...
These things were sold in a squarish, zippered case probably sourced from the same company in China that HK uses...
There might be a cardboard insert in the ID window, lemme check.
.455_Hunter
Member
If you can find your serial number on anything- box label, bill of sale, etc, I would be back on the phone having a pretty direct conversation with a FN customer service SUPERVISOR.
Bazoo
Member
You could go to the range with a metal detector and are if you get lucky.
The Glockodile
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It’s on a sticker, printed in both alphanumeric and bar code format, slipped into the little ID window.
On top of that, I think it’s also on the cardboard box that contains said zippered case (never got mine).
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