Serial numbers on firearms

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lemaymiami

lemaymiami

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I know that any manufacturer is obligated to have a unique number identifying every one that they manufacture since 1968 (I believe). This morning I caught the tail end of a radio discussion where an "anti" was pointing out that anyone with the correct 3D setup could produce a firearm without a serial number... What I'd like to hear about is what law/penalty would apply (particularly if it's a one off - not offered for sale, etc.).

I'm pretty well versed with my state's firearms laws (Florida) since I'm a retired cop. What I don't know and would appreciate a bit of education about is the relevant federal statutes (if any) on this topic. Just what are the obligations for anyone intending to build their own firearm as far as serial numbers are concerned?
 
Ah, yes. "Ghost Guns!"

A person may manufacture (through 3-D printing or other conventional means) a firearm for his or her own use without placing a serial number on it. One may not manufacture a firearm for commercial sale without a serial number, however.
 
"commercial sale" being defined by the ATF (of course) on a case by case basis with little guidance for the public seeking to abide (of course)

If it even looks like you are making the gun to make money (at any point) be careful in hiw you describe your motivations.

TCB
 
That will never be a problem in my case... since the only stuff I "manufacture" is fishing gear (rods, lures, flies...). Thanks for the replies, I'll be interested if anyone can provide the statute citations.
 
The rules are 'subtractive': https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/can-individual-make-large-quantities-firearms-and-sell-them

Can an individual make large quantities of firearms and sell them?

If an individual is “engaged in the business” (defined below) as a manufacturer or seller of firearms then that person must obtain a federal firearms license. In addition, manufacturers have a variety of specific responsibilities under the Gun Control Act, such as including a serial number and other markings on all firearms.

Under 18 U.S.C. 921 (a)(21)(A), the term "engaged in the business" means— as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.
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That is, if one is doing things commercially - for sale - there are requirements for things like serial numbers. Otherwise, not.
 
Just out of curiosity, what is the legal situation if you manufacture your own firearm for personal use and want to put a serial number on that firearm?
 
Go ahead, if you want to. There really isn't any legal status to it, except that once it is there it is illegal for you, or any future owner, to ever alter or obliterate that number.
 
an "anti" was pointing out that anyone with the correct 3D setup could produce a firearm without a serial number
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The irony here is that there is a certain almost metaphysical quality implied in the way that is said. Oooooh! A dangerous un-marked gun! As though that actually makes it more lethal and a greater threat to the public. Very similar to the over-wrought hype so long portrayed about "sawed-off" shotguns.

The fact that the legal prohibition on short shotguns is so heavy gives them a mystique, as though they were actually MORE dangerous than "regular" shotguns, instead of just prohibited only through an inane legislative accident. Similarly the idea that a gun might not have a serial number makes it a secret, hidden, "untraceable" extra dangerous weapon in the minds of the listener.

Words can send such powerful messages in just the way they are said, and in how the emphasis is applied.

Truth be told, guns are dangerous. If someone shot you with a shotgun, you'd probably be dead. Can you imagine just how incredibly EXTRA dead you'd be if it was an UN-MARKED, UNTRACEABLE gun without a serial number?!? If it was also "sawed off", well, you'd probably just disintegrate!
 
First off, I am not a lawyer. However, my interpretation of the law based on BATFE rulings is:

1) I can make (as opposed to manufacture for commercial purposes) a firearm as a non-licenced individual.

2) Manufacturers (as opposed to makers, see above) must be licenced and place markings on firearms they manufacture.

3) If I decide to sell a firearm I have made (as opposed to manufactured for sale), I can do so, but it is reccomended (as opposed to required) that I mark the firearm as a manufacturer would.

Now, I have covered "beating the rap." So let's discuss "beating the ride."

I feel like an officer would have reasonable suspiciin that any given firearm without a serial number must have had it's markings destroyed. I could disprove this in court... but it is easier and cheaper for me to mark the firearms I have made and avoid the ride.
 
"Truth be told, guns are dangerous. If someone shot you with a shotgun, you'd probably be dead. Can you imagine just how incredibly EXTRA dead you'd be if it was an UN-MARKED, UNTRACEABLE gun without a serial number?!? If it was also "sawed off", well, you'd probably just disintegrate!"

"Extra dead", ROFL!!! :)
 
I have a Mossberg shotgun without a serial number, a bolt-action .410. It never had one. I suppose an officer would have more of a problem with something newer not having a number.
 
Ash, there are a ton of old guns without markings. Every FFL dealer has handled that situation before. It isn't actually a big deal, but it certainly might take some explaining to a young or inexperienced officer. But, you know, I've been shooting for a long time and I've never, once, had an officer even look at one of my guns, let alone check (for) a serial number, so it isn't something I'd worry about.
 
Sam1911 said:
Ash, there are a ton of old guns without markings. Every FFL dealer has handled that situation before. It isn't actually a big deal, but it certainly might take some explaining to a young or inexperienced officer. But, you know, I've been shooting for a long time and I've never, once, had an officer even look at one of my guns, let alone check (for) a serial number, so it isn't something I'd worry about.
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I'd like to add a related warning. Can't recall exactly when ('80s maybe) or who, but specifically I read a comment years ago by a rep of a manufacturer that made legally unserialled guns prior to '68. Many people would send in old guns for repair, some in surprisingly good condition otherwise, but the '68 GCA provisions made it illegal for those guns to be returned.

It is illegal for anybody outside the government to ship a 'modern firearm' with no serial number in interstate commerce, even for repair or customizing. Whether one could 'hand deliver' I don't know.

Could a manufacturer or even a gunsmith assign and mark a serial number, then return such gun? I don't know that either.
 
It is illegal for anybody outside the government to ship a 'modern firearm' with no serial number in interstate commerce
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This is almost right. A "modern firearm" is anything made after 1898. Prior to 1968 many low-priced firearms, mostly .22's and single shot shotguns were made without serial numbers. These are perfectly legal, then and now. The catch is that if it ever had a serial, it better still have it.

Note: Another thing the GCA of 1968 did was require that not only did all new firearms have a serial, that serial had to be unique within Company. Prior to that most serials were unique within Model. (In other words a Model 70 Winchester might share a serial with a Model 52, etc.)
 
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retDAC, I've never heard of that before.

What the law says is that it is unlawful to ship or receive or possess a firearm that has had the manufacturer's serial number removed or obliterated, but it doesn't say any such thing about guns that weren't marked at all. I know you said this was 30 years ago, but do you have any references on this?
 
One of the goals of the antis is a total ban on the manufacture of firearms or firearms parts without a federal license. (They want a ban on all guns, but that is a longer term goal. They do things a bit at a time.) They argue that licenses and registration (which they also want as interim goals) will not be effective unless there is a ban on making guns or parts. As part of that, they have campaigned for licensing and registration of all machines (lathes, drill presses, etc.) that are or can be made capable of being used for gun making. Now they want to add 3-D printers and to ban blueprints, software, or even books that can be used in the manufacture of guns. One argument is that if we ban pornography that could "inspire sex crimes", we should ban books on guns that "inspire mass murder".

Jim
 
Sam1911 said:
retDAC, I've never heard of that before.

What the law says is that it is unlawful to ship or receive or possess a firearm that has had the manufacturer's serial number removed or obliterated, but it doesn't say any such thing about guns that weren't marked at all. I know you said this was 30 years ago, but do you have any references on this?
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Unfortunately I don't. Do recall reading it as I was so surprised at the time. Had never thought of it before.
 
It is most definitely NOT illegal to ship a long gun made prior to 1968 that never had a serial number assigned to it. I collect, among other things, Nylon 66 variants and many of these never had serial numbers assigned, and we ship them in and out all the time. Remember, hardly a single .22 rifle or inexpensive shotgun made prior to 1968 ever had a serial number assigned.
 
Right-o. Gunbroker is FILLED with old guns without serial numbers. They will all ship. Ain't nothing at odds there.
 
I know for a fact about the non-serialized guns on older stuff.

Of course, I did have an officer run a rifle once, a Western Field .22lr, and tell me it was stolen. He insisted because he had a listing for a stolen Beretta. He then realized it was not a Beretta and changed his tune and left it be.
 
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