Setback on 40 S&W

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donut1953

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I have 4 40 caliber guns. PPQ, Glock23, XDM and Remington 1911 R1. I was checking set back using the R1 and finding anywhere from .004 to .006 every time I would load the dummy round. I tried increasing the taper crimp to the point I was causing an indentation in the 165gr FMJFn while getting more a setback of .009. It appeared applying more crimp was not the answer.

I decided to load up a couple more dummies going back to the half turn on the Lee FCD for a taper crimp. I decided also to use my other 3 guns to see if any setback was happening. I ran each round 2 times each in all 3 guns with absolutely no setback. I then proceeded to try each round in the R1 and the first round caused a .004 and the second round setback .005. After this experiment it seems the R1 is partially the cause of the setback.

Can anybody offer any help to what may be causing the setback in the R1 and not my other guns.

.
 
You can not taper crimp enough to aid insufficient neck tension. If tension is insufficient then you need to solve it in sizing or flaring. Get a caliper and measure sized, and flared, and seated, and report back. You're after 0.004"+ of seating interference.

Also, 0.004" setback on first chambering isn't that much. I think I found about that on a 45ACP 1911 once upon a time.
 
My sized case runs od .416 to.417 at case mouth my flared case .419 and finished case is .421. I try to keep case flare as minimal as possible.

I really trying to figure out why the 1011 R1 is causing setback and the other 3 guns are not.
 
I really trying to figure out why the 1011 R1 is causing setback and the other 3 guns are not.
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(1911 I assume) R1
Most likely do to the way the bullet strikes the feed ramp in that pistol.

As mentioned above more crimp will not help and may make things worse.
Might just be me but if all you are getting is .004-.006 I wouldn't be overly worried.
If you keep chambering the same round do you get that much every time it is chambered? .004+.004+.004 etc?
Odds are unless everything is just right you might have that much difference in loaded rounds.
Any chance that maybe the R1 is just "denting" the nose of the bullet so what you are seeing is that instead of setback?
 
donut1953 said:
It appeared applying more crimp was not the answer.
Click to expand...
That is correct, in auto calibers there should only be enough "crimp" to remove the bell, or a hair more. Neck tension does the job. If there is not enough neck tension then the sizer is too big, you are running the expander in too deep or it is too big. Skip the expander and load some, cure the issue? There is your problem. Doesn't cure it, the sizer is too big. Some brass is thinner than others, but I want a sizer that works with all of it.
 
donut1953 said:
My sized case runs od .416 to.417 at case mouth my flared case .419 and finished case is .421. I try to keep case flare as minimal as possible.
Click to expand...
Good! These measurements seem about right. I'd prefer more tension, but this isn't unreasonable.

You might see if you polish the body of the flare mandrel so it expands less below the flare.

donut1953 said:
(I'm) really trying to figure out why the 1011 R1 is causing setback and the other 3 guns are not.
Click to expand...
That's easy! 1911's have a noticeably more angular feed path than their descendents, hence the universe of profile and magazine tuning discussions that are largely absent for later 20th Century Browning-esque tilt-barrel pistols.

I don't think you have a problem here. Just avoid full-speed chambering of the same round over and over, and rock on.
 
edwardware said:
avoid full-speed chambering of the same round over and over, and rock on.
Click to expand...
I would still like to see less setback, but yes, don't do it over and over to the same round, and you'll be ok.

Rounds don't slam into the "feed" ramp on 1911s if they have good mags and are made right, but it happens, instead of a nice smooth swoosh you get a kerplunk.
 
The Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die could well be causing the problem. It sizes down the brass and the bullet. The brass springs back more than the bullet and you end up with low neck tension.

Personally I will NEVER use a Lee carbide factory crimp die.
 
Thanks to all for responding. This is why I like this forum everybody is so helpful.
 
chambering in autos will generally cause setback, thats just reality at work, and as said above, 1911's are very well known for it. If you read up on feed ramp characteristics, its clear why. Ramped barrels will be less so. As far as the problem itself, I addressed this in 9mm by removing all case flaring, and just making sure the bullets goes in as strait as possible. Lead bullets are usually oversize, and do not suffer as much setback. Not sure there is anything else to do. If loading on a progressive, make sure each case is going all the way up the sizing die, if its slightly short of the top, it may not fully resize the case.
 
Texas10mm said:
The Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die could well be causing the problem. It sizes down the brass and the bullet. The brass springs back more than the bullet and you end up with low neck tension.

Personally I will NEVER use a Lee carbide factory crimp die.
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as far as I can tell, this die is only for rifles, and lead bullet pistol, which I use them for in 38, and .45 where they are excellent. The papers that come with the pistol sizes emphasize they bring the case down to minimum SAAMI spec, for reliability. The rifle sizers, which do not affect neck tension, because the size only a slight area of the neck, and only in a symmetrical, square way really promote the accuracy angle. I use the pistil dies, because the occasional 38/45 cast bullet will bulge a case enough to cause chambering issues. One nice thing about it, you can run ammo through it, and it wont rework good loads, so if you feel only a slight drag, the die made no meaningful change, but if you really feel resistance, you can throw that load out, because thats the one that may spring back.
 
mjsdwash said:
chambering in autos will generally cause setback, thats just reality at work, and as said above, 1911's are very well known for it. If you read up on feed ramp characteristics, its clear why. Ramped barrels will be less so. As far as the problem itself, I addressed this in 9mm by removing all case flaring, and just making sure the bullets goes in as strait as possible. Lead bullets are usually oversize, and do not suffer as much setback. Not sure there is anything else to do. If loading on a progressive, make sure each case is going all the way up the sizing die, if its slightly short of the top, it may not fully resize the case.
Click to expand...

Wow....I need to have a talk with all my 1911 pistols. They aren't having any setback problems at all. 45 ACP, 10mm and 9mm and there's no setback.
 
Texas10mm said:
Wow....I need to have a talk with all my 1911 pistols. They aren't having any setback problems at all. 45 ACP, 10mm and 9mm and there's no setback.
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Thats great. I personally love 1911's, thou if you read my history here, I could see why you would think I don't. Currently have a .45, and 9mm, and would put either against ANY other maker. Both beat Glock, Beretta's, even CZ (love my CZ, but can't shoot it as good as the 1911). I have a procedure to make 1911's run like an old Chevy, but never have seen a 1911 that does not cause setback, except with a ramped barrel. My Springfield, the only pistol I have seen get so dirty it ejects chunks of soot big enough to hurt, but does not malfunction, even when that dirty sets them back about .05 each run, and thats a pistol that will feed empty cases. I am jealous, shooting +P over the years, I have taken to slowly lowering the slide to prevent setback.
 
mjsdwash said:
Thats great. I personally love 1911's, thou if you read my history here, I could see why you would think I don't. Currently have a .45, and 9mm, and would put either against ANY other maker. Both beat Glock, Beretta's, even CZ (love my CZ, but can't shoot it as good as the 1911). I have a procedure to make 1911's run like an old Chevy, but never have seen a 1911 that does not cause setback, except with a ramped barrel. My Springfield, the only pistol I have seen get so dirty it ejects chunks of soot big enough to hurt, but does not malfunction, even when that dirty sets them back about .05 each run, and thats a pistol that will feed empty cases. I am jealous, shooting +P over the years, I have taken to slowly lowering the slide to prevent setback.
Click to expand...

I've owned a couple dozen 1911 pistols. My shooting buddy has another couple of dozen. From RIA to Wilson. We've never seen setback like you're talking about.

Yesterday I took my main range 1911 and took one of my reloads. I chambered the reload 25 times. It was 0.001" shorter after 25 chamberings. To me that's a read error.
 
If you're sizing and your expander is doing almost nothing with no resistance or very little your sizing die may be oversized on thinner brass. Had an issue with my 40 S&W major manufacturer die, called them, they sent me a new sizing die free of charge and didn't even have to send in the old one. Solved my problem with poor bullet tension. I could push the bullet deeper into the case with heavy thumb pressure or by pushing the round against my bench. Watch your expander die to make sure it's having to expand and not just entering the case.
 
donut1953 said:
it seems the R1 is partially the cause of the setback.

Can anybody offer any help to what may be causing the setback in the R1 and not my other guns.
Click to expand...
With 40S&W, particularly with TCFP (Truncated Cone Flat Point) bullets, using shorter OAL seems to aggravate bullet setback issue as bullet nose bumps the feed ramp.

If you are loading shorter than SAAMI max of 1.135", try loading to 1.135". If that reduces bullet setback, consider many 165/180 gr TCFP can be loaded longer to 1.140"+ depending on the barrel (Many match shooters even use longer 1.180"+) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-for-lead-plated-bullets.743416/#post-9363753

I found loading 40S&W 165/180 gr longer allows the bullet nose to engage the feed ramp sooner to reduce the "slam" factor. So use your barrel to determine the max OAL and incrementally decrease the length until the round reliably feeds/chambers from the magazine and you will likely find your bullet setback is minimalized - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-11419509

And if using RNFP (Round Nose Flat Point) bullets, I use even longer 1.155" OAL - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ick-plated-bullets.761471/page-3#post-9639622

index.php
 
My 1911R1 is a 45,and I found out that the lands are really close to the bullet,in rifle lingo,it's a short throat.I actually had a Hornady XTP get stuck in the rifling and it was seated as instructed in the load data.I had to shorten the COAL by .025 to get it right.Your overall length may be too long for the R1.
 
WVRJ said:
My 1911R1 is a 45,and I found out that the lands are really close to the bullet,in rifle lingo,it's a short throat.I actually had a Hornady XTP get stuck in the rifling and it was seated as instructed in the load data.I had to shorten the COAL by .025 to get it right.Your overall length may be too long for the R1.
Click to expand...

Or pay the money and have the barrel throated correctly.
 
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