She Cried Rape: No One Helped. WWYD?

[Rockwell1]

Kind of a ridiculous question.... until you realize it actually happened.

I'm the king of " I'm not a sheepdog" & I'd have done something. even a swift kick to the side of the head would have had some type of result.

The Wild West was akin to the frontier borders of the Roman Empire at it's fall. Lawless.

And yet, I'd still rather live there than NYC

 

[Deanimator]

I think that phenomena can be applied to almost any urban or densely populated suburban sprawl. As far as NYC goes for all the time you may have read about folks doing nothing I've personally seen folks do something. Their definitely are neighborhoods (and cultures) which are hostage to thuggery. That's a different issue though. It takes quite a law enforcement effort and community dialog to turn that kind of fear around. Like I said though, it certainly isn't exclusive to NYC.

NYC as a whole is "hostage to thuggery".

Any place where it's easier and cheaper to get a Top Secret clearance than to get a handgun to defend yourself in your home, nevermind to carry concealed, is the epitome of that condition.

The NYPD has ZERO duty to protect you as an individual and will move mountains to ensure that you can't protect yourself.

Abjuring all responsibility for protecting another, while ruthlessly forbidding them to defend themselves is the very definition of evil.

 

[mbt2001]

Martin Bronx:

Please re-read my statement. I clearly said "IN MANY WAYS..."

To my point: There were not hundreds of murders per year in each major city with tens of thousands of rapes / assaults / robberies back then. Further to that, there were not career criminals that had been incarcerated as many as 20 times running around perpetrating them either.

That was my point. The "wild west" wasn't as wild as downtown of any large city on a friday night...

 

[Bronx]

Any place where it's easier and cheaper to get a Top Secret clearance than to get a handgun to defend yourself in your home, nevermind to carry concealed, is the epitome of that condition.

I agree in principle but NYC isn't all that dangerous if you keep your head out of your rear.

 

[Dark Skies]

"Studies of group dynamics show that if one person would be the first to come to the aid of a victim, others are very likely to follow."

Don't bet on it. I intervened in a purse snatching once. I was sitting in my car at traffic lights about fifteen years back when I noticed the occupants in front of my car all staring towards a bus stop.

I followed their gaze and saw a woman was desperately trying to hang on to her bag whilst some scumbag was trying to wrench it free from her grasp. There were plenty of people in the bus stop. No-one did a thing to help. Nor did anyone from the cars fore and aft to me.

I got out and shouted for the guy to **** off out of it. He didn't. I felt obliged to weigh in. An almighty street brawl between me and the POS ensued. I was a lot fitter and younger then and I eventually prevailed. Not one person came to my assistance. For them it was just more entertainment whilst they waited for the bus. This was in London. I got off lucky. These days the creep would probably be carrying a knife.

 

[Bronx]

Please re-read my statement. I clearly said "IN MANY WAYS..."

To my point: There were not hundreds of murders per year in each major city with tens of thousands of rapes / assaults / robberies back then. Further to that, there were not career criminals that had been incarcerated as many as 20 times running around perpetrating them either.

That was my point. The "wild west" wasn't as wild as downtown of any large city on a friday night...

I think the idea of the Wild West being safer is a misguided notion since you're not taking population density into account. As far as cities go with equivalent population densities NYC is extraordinarily safe. Regarding todays career criminals versus the characters of yore; the low levels of criminal incarceration is a direct reflection of the lawlessness of the time and the ineffectiveness of what little law enforcement existed.

 

[Bronx]

These days the creep would probably be carrying a knife.

Happened to my sister in law once. Except she was carrying a knife. She burried it to the hilt in his thigh. When the cops arrived and cuffed his rear he threatened to get her, she said, "go ahead I'll stick it in your heart next time".

 

[Bronx]

Quote:
The Wild West was akin to the frontier borders of the Roman Empire at it's fall. Lawless.

And yet, I'd still rather live there than NYC

With all due respect you have no idea what you are talking about. The dark ages were a nightmare. I doubt most any of us on this board would be mentally equipped to live in such a society.

 

[Rockwell1]

With all due respect you have no idea what you are talking about.

Says the man who doesn't know me from a bar of soap. You have know idea what I do or don't know about the dark ages (neither one of us has any first hand experience). But all that aside I was referring to America in the later half of the 19th century even as late as the 1950s I’d much rather live on my own on a homestead than in NYC in 2009

 

[Deanimator]

I agree in principle but NYC isn't all that dangerous if you keep your head out of your rear.

The same could be said of Mogadishu or the Teutoburg Forest when Arminius used to hang out there.

Sometimes trouble comes to you and your only choices are to submit or fight, and the government of NYC and the NYPD are committed to ensuring that if you do fight, that you cannot do so effectively. If you choose anyway to effectively defend yourself, they will step into the place of your attacker and ensure with all the resources of government that you are victimized no matter what. That is EVIL.

 

[Deanimator]

The dark ages were a nightmare.

Many people would say exactly the same thing of contemporary New York City. I'm one of them.

I doubt most any of us on this board would be mentally equipped to live in such a society.

Since I'm not mentally equipped to be a victim MANDATED BY LAW, I'm not mentally equipped to live in NYC.

 

[Deanimator]

Happened to my sister in law once. Except she was carrying a knife. She burried it to the hilt in his thigh. When the cops arrived and cuffed his rear he threatened to get her, she said, "go ahead I'll stick it in your heart next time".

I take it that carrying such a knife in NYC was unlawful?

Had all of the facts been completely identical, except that instead of your sister, it had been a Black man, I wonder if we'd have had the same "happy ending". Not surprisingly, in places which force people BY LAW to be helpless, unarmed victims, "justice" can be and often is, wildly capricious. In such places, some "innocent" lives are more "innocent" [and valuable] than others.

 

[Bronx]

But all that aside I was referring to America in the later half of the 19th century even as late as the 1950s I’d much rather live on my own on a homestead than in NYC in 2009

I was wondering if that is what you meant. So then I apologize for misquoting. As far as the Dark Ages goes, no none of us have first hand experience, but what history is available easily illustrates the extraordinary hardships that existed then.

 

[Bronx]

The same could be said of Mogadishu or the Teutoburg Forest when Arminius used to hang out there.

I can't speak to Mogadishu but Arminius wasn't very bright that day by the available accounts.

Sometimes trouble comes to you and your only choices are to submit or fight, and the government of NYC and the NYPD are committed to ensuring that if you do fight, that you cannot do so effectively. If you choose anyway to effectively defend yourself, they will step into the place of your attacker and ensure with all the resources of government that you are victimized no matter what. That is EVIL.

This I definitely agree with.

 

[Bronx]

"I take it that carrying such a knife in NYC was unlawful?"

I think the blade was of the legal limit......My Sister in law is Puerto Rican the thief was a black man.

 

[Bronx]

BTW nothing personal meant here, I find this to be a stimulating conversation.

 

[Bronx]

"Many people would say exactly the same thing of contemporary New York City. I'm one of them."

Have you ever lived here? If so where, when and for how long?

 

[mbt2001]

I think the idea of the Wild West being safer is a misguided notion since you're not taking population density into account.

You continually mis-characterize what I am saying. In SOME cases or MANY cases is used to say that it isn't a general statement. For instance, I would say, in MANY cases people robbing your house flee when confronted by an armed home owner. That isn't to say it happens in ALL cases. So the point I made was, IN MANY CASES the old west was safer than today. Read some on the history, oh yeah it was violent, but not like today.

Further to that, your explanation for the difference isn't supported by history. NYC has been densely populated since 1900 and things have gotten WORSE. The population numbers in 1920 - 1930 were very very close to the population numbers in 1990...

 

[Seenterman]

I work in the city

Honestly I dont know what I would do in this situation. I feel a little cowardly saying get above ground and call the police, but I dont know if I could run into that situation not knowing anything such as what weapons this guy has, if hes a raging meth head or on steroids. Seriously makes me think about carring a blade with me at all times even though I think the max length is 4 inches

For everyone saying they would get involved I commend you but I just want to remind people of a little article I read less that week ago.

Little old lady standing on the street gets run up on by a mugger, he tries to take her purse, she shoots him once in the elbow. Now this scumbag is suing her for MILLIONS! If they dont get what they want from you on the street, they'll take everything you got in court.

grumble grumble. . . .

http://twhiddon.blogspot.com/2009/03/new-york-city-grandma-being-sued-for.html

Hopefully this gets dismissed right off the bat, but if it doesnt I cant say Im suprized.

 

[Bronx]

You continually mis-characterize what I am saying. In SOME cases or MANY cases is used to say that it isn't a general statement. For instance, I would say, in MANY cases people robbing your house flee when confronted by an armed home owner. That isn't to say it happens in ALL cases. So the point I made was, IN MANY CASES the old west was safer than today. Read some on the history, oh yeah it was violent, but not like today.

Well, then we can just disagree. The only reason I could accept that it was "safer" would be due to lower population density.

Further to that, your explanation for the difference isn't supported by history. NYC has been densely populated since 1900 and things have gotten WORSE. The population numbers in 1920 - 1930 were very very close to the population numbers in 1990...

1920: the 5 boroughs was roughly 5,600,000

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/census/1920_total_pop.pdf

Today the estimate is roughly 15,000,000 - 18,000,000

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/census/popcur.shtml



Back "then" law enforcement and the associated statistics were not something that was tracked and documented to the level it is today. Their is no record of the whore houses in the downtown area where sickos could go and buy children for their thrills.

 

[Neocode]

I know for a fact I would involve myself, armed or not armed. I've intervened in other situations in the past.

I have to do what I feel is right, to be able to hold my head up and look myself in the eye in the mirror. Turning my back on a woman being raped... no way.

Seenterman, 4 inches is plenty to do the job if needed.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

I have spent much time in the Markets in and around the big citys during my work. At times yea there are screams in the night within earshot. But as long they dont affect YOU, YOUR Truck, YOUR cargo (Itself worth much in many ways) and your ability to function until the load is finished you did not get involved.

I have had people come in telling me of a gunman that scared them and they ran. I would call the LEO's and hold the people specifically in a safe place until those LEO's arrived. It worked out well.

But.. life and death in big cities are upon us all. I stay to my work and stick to my assigned mission. Many a time Ive seen a Interstate wreck with dead, dying and the survivors. All you can do is seperate, sort and make a list of which to take care of first and work down from the top. You cannot save em all.

It's all in God's hands and the sooner we understand this, the easier it is to live each day.

The closest I came to getting involved was at a POS Gas station deep in Kansas, a couple having a domestic had the wife throwing hubby's stuff out of the car into the rain and driving off, leaving hubby with just a pile of wet clothes and no home, family or anything.

The LEO's were involved finding the wife, the rest of the people present passed the hat and came up with money to send hubby on way via greyhound so he can start over. It was not much but all in all life is like that sometimes.

 

[EHL]

I'm glad a few fellas in here still regularly wear their cajones. Honestly, seeing a woman being brutally raped and doing nothing is worse than cowardice, it's downright approval of the act if no gesture is made to stop the crime in commision.

also, I for one would rather in live in the frontier days where at least the government wasn't tying your hands behind your back in being able to protect yourself and your family. New York and places like Komifornia have effectively created a state of potential victims for easy pickings by all the would be rapists and murderers out there. So you either break the law and carry an "illegal" concealed weapon for your own protection or you go on being an easy unarmed target for the bad guys out there. Not much of a choice, is it?

 

[DFW1911]

"Studies of group dynamics show that if one person would be the first to come to the aid of a victim, others are very likely to follow."

Don't bet on it.

Makes sense, which should induce one to think "can I handle this alone?"

I think some folks will react, some won't, and some may after others get involved.

 

[shdwfx]

As far as "Wild West" goes versus living in todays American society. You need to be smoking something real good if you believe the "Wild West" was a safer society to live in. The Wild West was akin to the frontier borders of the Roman Empire at it's fall. Lawless. Does the US need improvement? Of course it does.

With all due respect, you've seen too many movies.
Violent crime rates in the "wild" west were no where near that of modern metro life.
Any comparison of the two is ludicrous.

America in the 1800's, for all it's faults, was a much more moral society than ours.

...
In his book, Frontier Violence: Another Look, author W. Eugene Hollon, provides us with these astonishing facts:
In Abilene, Ellsworth, Wichita, Dodge City, and Caldwell, for the years from 1870 to 1885, there were only 45 total homicides. This equates to a rate of approximately 1 murder per 100,000 residents per year.
In Abilene, supposedly one of the wildest of the cow towns, not a single person was killed in 1869 or 1870.
Zooming forward over a century to 2007, a quick look at Uniform Crime Report statistics shows us the following regarding the aforementioned gun control “paradise” cities of the east:
DC – 183 Murders (31 per 100,000 residents)
New York – 494 Murders (6 per 100,000 residents)
Baltimore – 281 Murders (45 per 100,000 residents)
Newark – 104 Murders (37 per 100,000 residents)