It's not an issue of would you fight, or do enough to save her. She sued because the conductor and gatekeeper did NOTHING. They didn't even call the police or stop the train, even though they could have done so in complete safety, and there were on the job. They had obligations as city employees, even if they declined to be decent human beings.
She Cried Rape: No One Helped. WWYD?
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Hungry Seagull
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EHL, I have not been stumbling across women being raped in the classic scenario. Therefore I have not had to decide which way to go with that.
HOWEVER, my spouse was followed to my rig by another driver who had intent to rape spouse. Fortunately spouse left the door unlocked and was able to gain entry, I was in the sleeper until I understood the third person was the one intent on following spouse aboard the cab and rape her "In our house"
When the yelling, hitting and combat stopped, spouse was fine, man fled and got away and I was going through the process of either giving chase, calling leo or getting the entire rig and it's million dollar load the hell off the property.
The million dollars in controlled medical substances won out and we left without injury to anyone. It's quite possible that man saved his own life by fleeing.
HOWEVER, my spouse was followed to my rig by another driver who had intent to rape spouse. Fortunately spouse left the door unlocked and was able to gain entry, I was in the sleeper until I understood the third person was the one intent on following spouse aboard the cab and rape her "In our house"
When the yelling, hitting and combat stopped, spouse was fine, man fled and got away and I was going through the process of either giving chase, calling leo or getting the entire rig and it's million dollar load the hell off the property.
The million dollars in controlled medical substances won out and we left without injury to anyone. It's quite possible that man saved his own life by fleeing.
Now, you might assume crime stats weren't as accurate then as ours is today.Martin said:
But, if in your imagination you inflate the crime stats of yester-year to match your position, also know that a huge percentage of modern crimes are also not reported.
No matter how you fudge the numbers, there's no real evidence for the claim that you are safer, disarmed, in modern down-town New York than you were in Abilene 130 years ago.
catspa
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Seenterman:Little old lady standing on the street gets run up on by a mugger, he tries to take her purse, she shoots him once in the elbow.
It's clear to me that she needs to review the procedure. The little old ladies that I instruct don't shoot for the elbow, and if they accidently hit their attacker there, they continue in their efforts until either 1) he's no longer moving, or 2) their revolver is empty.
Parker
It's clear to me that she needs to review the procedure. The little old ladies that I instruct don't shoot for the elbow, and if they accidently hit their attacker there, they continue in their efforts until either 1) he's no longer moving, or 2) their revolver is empty.
Parker
I remember in my senior year of college, I lived in a campus house. There was a row of houses that we lived in, right next to school. One night, in the alley we heard a scream. Must have been 20 guys in the alley before the echo died down. Turned out it was a couple of cats. But we were there ready to tear somebody's head off !! But this wasn't NYC either.
sarduy
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if i see a rape been commited i would likely get my gun and stop the attacker!
Martin:
I am actually kind of PO'd because you ruined my point. I don't give a hoot in hell what the numbers are. People that recoil at the idea of living in the "wild west" but think nothing of living in their crime ridden, drug infested cities of today make my inner cynic laugh. We are stymied by the law when it comes to defending ourselves in a way that no generation in US history has been.
That is the point.
Agreeing to disagree is fine with me. It is plain that you got your understanding of history from John Ford and Howard Hawks.
I am actually kind of PO'd because you ruined my point. I don't give a hoot in hell what the numbers are. People that recoil at the idea of living in the "wild west" but think nothing of living in their crime ridden, drug infested cities of today make my inner cynic laugh. We are stymied by the law when it comes to defending ourselves in a way that no generation in US history has been.
That is the point.
Agreeing to disagree is fine with me. It is plain that you got your understanding of history from John Ford and Howard Hawks.
Deanimator
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Actually Arminius was brilliant, certainly enough on his game to wipe out a couple(?) of Roman legions. Apparently, you're thinking about the Roman commander.
Deanimator
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I've never lived there and have clearly stated why I never would.
I can't possibly even begin to imagine any reason why I'd want to live there.
Why would I want to live some place which recognizes no legal duty to protect me, and at the same time does everything humanly possible to ensure that I can't protect myself?
NYC simply has NOTHING to offer me that could even come within a million miles of compensating for that. I won't live any place else like that either.
Apachedriver
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Martin
Nice to meet you.
Your numbers are off.
That quote is right from the link you gave.
There have been some large changes in NYC but the overall mindset of the people is still mostly the same as it was back in the days of Kitty Genovese. There is much work to be done there but I don't think it's doable. Why? My view is that it's a gateway city and that will never change. Life in gateway cities is always about mind your own business and survive.
I think of NYC and I think Baltimore, LA, Chicago and Houston. It's true what you say...if you keep your head out of your rear, you can survive. But in many other places in this country, you don't have to survive, instead you can actually live.
It's hard to imagine really living unless one takes a leap out of the City. In NYC, your whole world is the space within 10' of you and even then you have no guarantees of controlling it.
Did I live in NYC?
The Elder Ave stop on the 6 train was home for 23 years. I took the 42 bus, later became the #4 bus to church. I would get off at Prospect Ave for the big church on Westchester Ave. Took the train, #6 to RR to #7 to go to H.S. in Queens. Had family from Castle Hill to 3rd Ave and Grand Concourse to Hunts Point.
Yes I have been back to visit many times. Learned I miss the cultures and foods but not much else. I also realized other things. New York as a city tends to be historical, arrogant, and rude. Texas as a state is historical, proud, and pleasant.
What would I have done in that girl's case? Back in the day, I would've jumped in head first to try to stop it only because I was a hothead regarding those sorts of things.
Nowadays, I don't live in condition white, but I don't live at home on the edge of survival either. Life has taught me much. I would and do use all that I know to do what is right for myself and others.
Martin, sometimes the grass is actually greener elsewhere. I wish you the best up there.
Oh yeah, I also miss Friday nights at the Copa and hitting White Castle's in the morning.
Nice to meet you.
Your numbers are off.
That quote is right from the link you gave.
There have been some large changes in NYC but the overall mindset of the people is still mostly the same as it was back in the days of Kitty Genovese. There is much work to be done there but I don't think it's doable. Why? My view is that it's a gateway city and that will never change. Life in gateway cities is always about mind your own business and survive.
I think of NYC and I think Baltimore, LA, Chicago and Houston. It's true what you say...if you keep your head out of your rear, you can survive. But in many other places in this country, you don't have to survive, instead you can actually live.
It's hard to imagine really living unless one takes a leap out of the City. In NYC, your whole world is the space within 10' of you and even then you have no guarantees of controlling it.
Did I live in NYC?
The Elder Ave stop on the 6 train was home for 23 years. I took the 42 bus, later became the #4 bus to church. I would get off at Prospect Ave for the big church on Westchester Ave. Took the train, #6 to RR to #7 to go to H.S. in Queens. Had family from Castle Hill to 3rd Ave and Grand Concourse to Hunts Point.
Yes I have been back to visit many times. Learned I miss the cultures and foods but not much else. I also realized other things. New York as a city tends to be historical, arrogant, and rude. Texas as a state is historical, proud, and pleasant.
What would I have done in that girl's case? Back in the day, I would've jumped in head first to try to stop it only because I was a hothead regarding those sorts of things.
Nowadays, I don't live in condition white, but I don't live at home on the edge of survival either. Life has taught me much. I would and do use all that I know to do what is right for myself and others.
Martin, sometimes the grass is actually greener elsewhere. I wish you the best up there.
Oh yeah, I also miss Friday nights at the Copa and hitting White Castle's in the morning.
Deanimator
Member
Those who willingly live in NYC clearly prefer the certainty of submission to the possibility of self-defense.
They rely upon the actuarial table. I rely upon the Glock 19 I just took off. Guess which one's more useful when somebody tries to rob, rape or murder you?
Deanimator
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We've got White Castle here in Cleveland and you can go carrying a handgun, concealed or open. Sure beats pretending that the police will "protect" you or realizing that the only thing between you and helpless victimization is the laws of probability.
Those numbers are BS. Do you understand population density? you've given me a figure per capita. It doesn't even speak to the proximity of the citizenry.
The closest I could find was Abilene in 1870 Abilene had a population density of 760 people per square mile. City was 4.1 square miles.
http://www.kancoll.org/books/roenigk/chpt5.htm
NYC today is 66,940 people per square mile. That's 88 times What Abilene was in 1870. So tell me how a figure of 1 per 100,000 versus 6 anually in a city with 88 times the population density is better? Baloney numbers.
I don't recoil at the quality of life you are describing. I'll take the fresh air and miles between me and my neighbors gladly if I could at this time. Don't mis-understand me either I completely agree that the law works against the good guys and for the bad guys. Whose John Ford and Howard Hawks? Should I be insulted?
Apachedriver
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Not completely accurate. Many have no other means to get up and go. It's all they can do to survive, whether their own fault or the circumstances they live under.
But there are others that do chose to stay. Sometimes, when you live in a fishbowl, no matter how much you can see of the world around you, you have no idea what it's like to live out there. And if you believe it's as scary as the world you live in, it easy to justify staying where at least you're familiar.
Personally I chose to believe there was more to gain and so took some serious risks to get out of there. Of course, I was young and didn't have much to lose, but that's not to say I didn't have a back up plan as well.
ETA: Deanimator, sadly or luckily for me, there are no White Castle's with belly bombers in Texas.
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Hungry Seagull
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I have walked New York's Hunts Point and associated streets. It is a place filled with humanity packed into a small area. I had driven down one avenue towards Manhattan that had a EL above me and all kinds of people on both sides that beautiful day. Pretty women too.. (Give me a break fellas...)
I have stood on top of Emigrant Pass where the Trees are close together and the sides of the mountain too steep to walk up or down without ropes. Such country as only God can make with fresh air and absolute SILENCE except for that of wildlife and other truckers going down the road a ways.
I have seen the far southwest where you see a town about... 16 miles distant with your own eyeballs, growing steadly larger with each passing mile as you approach.
There is no way those who STAY in New York by choice to ever see or know some of these things in our Great USA that has been ours to live in by choice and freedom anywhere... not just NYC. There are places where you can just live free and not worry about danger and alarms... however keep an eye out for that mountain cat and a ear for the rattlesnake.... Just because you are way out here aint mean yer safe. =)
Cheers.
I have stood on top of Emigrant Pass where the Trees are close together and the sides of the mountain too steep to walk up or down without ropes. Such country as only God can make with fresh air and absolute SILENCE except for that of wildlife and other truckers going down the road a ways.
I have seen the far southwest where you see a town about... 16 miles distant with your own eyeballs, growing steadly larger with each passing mile as you approach.
There is no way those who STAY in New York by choice to ever see or know some of these things in our Great USA that has been ours to live in by choice and freedom anywhere... not just NYC. There are places where you can just live free and not worry about danger and alarms... however keep an eye out for that mountain cat and a ear for the rattlesnake.... Just because you are way out here aint mean yer safe. =)
Cheers.
(Nice to meet you too
)16.5 is the total I'm getting from that site for all 5 boroughs. New York City is Manhattan alone.
For the record. I can't WAIT to get the hell out of here. My point is NYPD has done pretty well all things considered.
It is ridiculous (and a seperate issue in my mind) that law-abiding citizens are prohibited from carrying armament for self protection.
Apachedriver
Member
Martin, you reading the chart wrong.
Normally, yes NYC is Manhattan alone. But in that chart, it shows NYC followed by each borrough and Mahattan is listed among them. Add the numbers from each borrough w/o NYC and the totals will equal.
I'm being nitnoid. Sorry.
Change in Population, Census Bureau and DCP Estimates
(April 2000 to July 2007)
New York City 8,008,278
Bronx 1,332,650
Brooklyn 2,465,326
Manhattan 1,537,195
Queens 2,229,379
Staten Island 443,728
Normally, yes NYC is Manhattan alone. But in that chart, it shows NYC followed by each borrough and Mahattan is listed among them. Add the numbers from each borrough w/o NYC and the totals will equal.
I'm being nitnoid. Sorry.
Change in Population, Census Bureau and DCP Estimates
(April 2000 to July 2007)
New York City 8,008,278
Bronx 1,332,650
Brooklyn 2,465,326
Manhattan 1,537,195
Queens 2,229,379
Staten Island 443,728
Deanimator
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My relatives in Chicago are that way. We have NO values in common. They might as well be in North Korea, if not on another planet.
Apachedriver
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Unfortunately it's the same with my family that's left up there. Nothing that we can relate thru anymore other than sharing blood ties and stories of the past.
Oh well.
Look I'm not trying to convince you to move to NYC. What I will tell you is you have an extraordinarily skewed opinion of what life is like here, but hey, you're entitled to that.
It's a great city. The sheer ability to educate yourself due to exposure to all kinds of experiences is enormous. The business opportunities are tremendous.
It's not a city for ther faint of heart though. If you let it she will gobble you up. NYC people tend to be an extraordinarily creative, tenacious and self-reliant lot. I believe a great many folks mistakenely assume we are rude and arrogant. We're not, those are the tourists and we city-folk stay the hell away from them for the most part. We may be gruff, and like things fast but it's a good bunch who live here.
I've travelled and lived extensively as well, CA, TN, NH, VT, NV, NM, AZ, TX, VA, NC, SC, CT, MA, OR, WA, DC, HI, etc...... Mexico, Phillipines, Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Peru........No fishbowl for me.
As far as self protection goes, I'll do what I have to do. The laws here do suck for self protection. If it ever comes down to the SHTF I'll make sure I live to get my lawyer to deal with it. In the meantime those of us who believe in the 2nd will do what we can to make it stronger here. After all what good are the other 9 without #2?
Blah-blah-blah.......BS.
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