Hometeached1
Member
So which would you choose for a single stack 9mm CCW? Now I know the R51 has had problems, but so did the shield at first. So if you knew that they would both be reliable which would you choose?
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Shield or R51. Please read the post before voting.
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1KPerDay
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The question is moot.
wally
Member
Kinda like should I marry Sally or Sue -- only you can decide, a CCW is an intensely personal choice. The Sheild having been out longer, combined with S&W's outstanding customer service made me move to the Shield after Kahr's customer service was lacking when my frame rail broke 
barnbwt
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This whole forum is moot. Whatever.
I vote R51 because it's interesting. And beyond being interesting, it is a fantastic concept (grip safety, good trigger, narrow gun, slippery contours, low recoil, large grip for its size). Unfortunately, much to my dismay, it seems Remington has so thoroughly botched the manufacture to the extent that I fear the Pedersen action itself is impugned in the eyes of many. I sincerely hope Remington has the stamina to fix these issues, otherwise the Glockers/Remington-haters will get their wish and the R51 will go the way of the Steyr GB --and the shooting community will lose one more promising and innovative design. That's okay, though, because nothing could ever improve on the Browning design in any way, whatsoever (oh, except for its stupidly high ratio of moving mass and very tall profile, and internal parts nearly Victorian in their awkward complexity; but those don't count since they are all critical to proper 'balance' and 'shootability')
That said, many of the most vitriolic "damning" claims being hurled are idiotic ones like loose sights, which are both easily fixed and hardly intrinsic to the gun's design. Breech block binding, however, is something the design is certainly more prone to than a Browning derivative, so a maker must bother to ensure mating surfaces are machined, polished, and lubricated properly before delivery; Para USA obviously couldn't be bothered, and Remington couldn't be bothered to keep an eye on them.
FWIW, I doubt the Shield had the kinds of problems the R51 is having; jammed parts, mis-assembled parts, split magazines, rough chambers, burrs on rifling, partial out-of-battery discharges, hang fires (due to slide hanging before going fully into battery with the trigger pulled).
Oddly enough, not one of these issues was an issue on the Model 51, made back when Remington had ambitions of producing firearms well, so I do not buy into claims (yet) that the engineering/design is at fault. I think the blame rests squarely on Para USA, SC's incompetence at this point, and responsibility with Remington's program and contractor oversight people. Either Para committed a massive fraud on Remington (and should be getting loudly and publicly sued right about now) or the program managers were complicit in shoveling out defective merchandise (and should be getting loudly and publicly fired right now, followed by some loud and public apologies, recalls, and compensation)
Maybe we can get Fiat to buy Freedom Group?
TCB
I vote R51 because it's interesting. And beyond being interesting, it is a fantastic concept (grip safety, good trigger, narrow gun, slippery contours, low recoil, large grip for its size). Unfortunately, much to my dismay, it seems Remington has so thoroughly botched the manufacture to the extent that I fear the Pedersen action itself is impugned in the eyes of many. I sincerely hope Remington has the stamina to fix these issues, otherwise the Glockers/Remington-haters will get their wish and the R51 will go the way of the Steyr GB --and the shooting community will lose one more promising and innovative design. That's okay, though, because nothing could ever improve on the Browning design in any way, whatsoever (oh, except for its stupidly high ratio of moving mass and very tall profile, and internal parts nearly Victorian in their awkward complexity; but those don't count since they are all critical to proper 'balance' and 'shootability'
)That said, many of the most vitriolic "damning" claims being hurled are idiotic ones like loose sights, which are both easily fixed and hardly intrinsic to the gun's design. Breech block binding, however, is something the design is certainly more prone to than a Browning derivative, so a maker must bother to ensure mating surfaces are machined, polished, and lubricated properly before delivery; Para USA obviously couldn't be bothered, and Remington couldn't be bothered to keep an eye on them.
FWIW, I doubt the Shield had the kinds of problems the R51 is having; jammed parts, mis-assembled parts, split magazines, rough chambers, burrs on rifling, partial out-of-battery discharges, hang fires (due to slide hanging before going fully into battery with the trigger pulled).
Oddly enough, not one of these issues was an issue on the Model 51, made back when Remington had ambitions of producing firearms well, so I do not buy into claims (yet) that the engineering/design is at fault. I think the blame rests squarely on Para USA, SC's incompetence at this point, and responsibility with Remington's program and contractor oversight people. Either Para committed a massive fraud on Remington (and should be getting loudly and publicly sued right about now) or the program managers were complicit in shoveling out defective merchandise (and should be getting loudly and publicly fired right now, followed by some loud and public apologies, recalls, and compensation)
Maybe we can get Fiat to buy Freedom Group?
TCB
Orion8472
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An interesting poll, . . . since it was the decision I was facing. . . . . . . until the issues with the R51 came up. I WAS going to sell my Shield for an R51, but as it is, the Shield is staying with me. If Remington addresses the problems satisfactorily, . . . and they release pistols that are reliable, then I'll get an R51 . . . . . for many of the same reasons barnbwt gave above.
Zaydok Allen
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Can't answer since I don't have your hands, or waste, or eyes, or......
I carry an XDs .45, and a Ruger SP101.... so I vote neither.
I carry an XDs .45, and a Ruger SP101.... so I vote neither.
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Hometeached1
Member
I don't see this question being moot and I know it's a personal choice on what is best for your CCW. I just wanted to see on a somewhat level playing field as far as reliability, which one YOU would choose (as stated in OP). I guess kind of like, do you prefer DA/SA or DAO.
BTW. I'm not debating which one for my carry, just curious.
BTW. I'm not debating which one for my carry, just curious.
JohnBiltz
Member
The assumption about reliability with the R51 is a big one right now because it isn't. I've looked at them both side by side and the Shield is quite a bit shorter and I've actually fired one. I'm not in the market for either of them but I would prefer the Shield even if the R51 actually worked, which it doesn't.
I like the looks and design of the R51 and I would love to have one but since I carry the M&P 9C now the Shield would be a good partner for it. As it is I'm transitioning to carrying my 3913 for the summer months. It has both of them whipped in my opinion. Also, since I grabbed one when the CA DOC surplus was on the market I got it for about the same price as the others too. Score.
lincen
Member
I bought an R51 new on March 14 and have put about 200 rounds through it. Had two failures to return to battery in the first 50 rounds and two failures to eject properly in the second hundred. Still not pleased that the slide is more difficult to rack than advertised BUT the gun shoots great with the least recoil of any lightweight 9mm that I've fired. Remington has some work to do and mine will go back if they have a recall. That said, I plan to keep it. Have about 50 handguns so it is not my only carry or 9mm option.
jfrey
Member
I own the Shield and am completely happy with it, hence my vote. The Remington is new, relatively unproven, and ugly as far as I am concerned. Remington makes great rifles but S&W has been in the pistol business for many years and knows what they are doing in that area. I doubt I would buy a S&W rifle for the same reason.
barnbwt
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"Remington makes great rifles but S&W has been in the pistol business for many years"
And yet Remington's rifles are among their poorest to date (Marlin, 700, etc.), while S&W's MP15/10 have been resounding successes. There is honestly very little excuse for Remington; I've given them more than the benefit of the doubt, but following their bone-headed PR rollout of this gun and then the rampant quality issues flowing unattended from their contractor, I've looked more into how they do business these days, and I now conclude they really aren't in the business of making guns anymore, but in optimizing a system's profitability and playing internal politics while it decays, and it didn't start with Freedom Group/Cerberus.
TCB
And yet Remington's rifles are among their poorest to date (Marlin, 700, etc.), while S&W's MP15/10 have been resounding successes. There is honestly very little excuse for Remington; I've given them more than the benefit of the doubt, but following their bone-headed PR rollout of this gun and then the rampant quality issues flowing unattended from their contractor, I've looked more into how they do business these days, and I now conclude they really aren't in the business of making guns anymore, but in optimizing a system's profitability and playing internal politics while it decays, and it didn't start with Freedom Group/Cerberus.
TCB
hardluk1
member
Neather ,CW9 kahr
I am considering a sub compact 9MM also. I have shot the Shield, and am looking for an XDs, and Walther PPS to shoot. The R51 is new, and probably has some bugs to be worked out like many new guns.
I voted Shield because I think it HAS had the bugs worked out, and the one I shot was accurate, and reliable for a small pistol.
I voted Shield because I think it HAS had the bugs worked out, and the one I shot was accurate, and reliable for a small pistol.
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bannockburn
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1) Kahr PM9
2) S&W Shield
3) SIG P938
4) Ruger LC9
5) Remington R51 (maybe at some future date).
2) S&W Shield
3) SIG P938
4) Ruger LC9
5) Remington R51 (maybe at some future date).
jimbo555
Member
I voted shield, but I'm happy with my lc-9
JohnnyBravo
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I like guns that aren't run of the mill.
I usually carry a HK P7 but have been slowly carrying my Shield 40 more and more because it is lighter and has a shorter grip.
I was very interested in the R51 because it has a safety, shorter grip that still allows you to get three fingers on it, and the low bore axis of the P7.
If Remington gets squared away and produces an R51 that is both reliable and durable I will buy one.
In the meantime I'm going to buy a Shield 9 and carry it in honor of the Remington that could have been and yet might be.
JB
P.S. Remington should have actually finished the gun they were building. If they had, I would have been willing to pay five bills for it.
I usually carry a HK P7 but have been slowly carrying my Shield 40 more and more because it is lighter and has a shorter grip.
I was very interested in the R51 because it has a safety, shorter grip that still allows you to get three fingers on it, and the low bore axis of the P7.
If Remington gets squared away and produces an R51 that is both reliable and durable I will buy one.
In the meantime I'm going to buy a Shield 9 and carry it in honor of the Remington that could have been and yet might be.
JB
P.S. Remington should have actually finished the gun they were building. If they had, I would have been willing to pay five bills for it.
After handling several examples I would pick the Shield without reservation. The R51's I have seen leave me with serious questions - even if I were to locate one of the nice ones that apparently are out there.
I don't usually buy a product based on the warranty, but with Remington only offering a 1 or 2 year warranty on a product that appears to be thrown together with little regard to it's quality - no thank you.
I was genuinely exited for this product before I was able to inspect a few examples.
I don't usually buy a product based on the warranty, but with Remington only offering a 1 or 2 year warranty on a product that appears to be thrown together with little regard to it's quality - no thank you.
I was genuinely exited for this product before I was able to inspect a few examples.
HoosierQ
Member
I voted Shield for this reason: Problems or not, the Shield is built on the tried and 100 years proven true Browning short recoil action. This or that may have been wrong with the thing (I am not following that story) but given that the technology is so mature, I cannot imagine that it would not be an easy enough thing to get right.
The R51, while not a new design by any means, is a design that can be found in maybe 1 in 1,000,000 handguns produced over the last hundred years.
I think the R51 is a very interesting gun with much promise.
The R51, while not a new design by any means, is a design that can be found in maybe 1 in 1,000,000 handguns produced over the last hundred years.
I think the R51 is a very interesting gun with much promise.
Madcap_Magician
Member
I have not shot an R51 yet, but I am interested in hearing about problems with the Shield. Mine is one of the earliest guns, bought the day after the NRA show release (S&W wisely had the guns in the stores already, with staff forbidden to take them out till after the release).
Never had a malfunction of any kind with any ammo.
Never had a malfunction of any kind with any ammo.
Bert Retta
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R51 is great except it looks like a Flash Gordon RAY GUN,I'd own one if not for that deal breaker!
wally
Member
Because its interesting I'd almost certainly get one if the issues get worked out.
But reliability is paramount in a CCW and it takes a great leap of faith to jump on a new gun, particularly a radically different design, out of the box. Look at the issues with Kimber's new Solo and it came out at nearly twice the price of the R51.
The Shield is just a marginally smaller, single stack version of what they have been making for many years, still they've needed a recall of some serial number ranges.
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