Shoot, don't shoot?

[St. Gunner]

I was reading some of the stuff posted in the thread of mine they have floating, reading some of the posts by Slueth about his classes about the legal survival after a shooting, and just thinking on some of the crimes I have seen, heard about, or had visited on my family.

Where do you draw the line?

Last Sat. night, I was prepared to shoot based solely on the belief that to invade my property at the closest point to my home and in the darkest place was to do so for horrible reasons. I knew I was outnumbered, I knew I was not going to be treated as nice as I would if the perp was in my house, but I also released because of much previous thought what exactly could happen.

A few years ago I was blindsided by a gangbanger with a pallet slat while unloading a trailer load of hay. He snuck up behind me and busted me in the head. I was wearing a 1911 at the time, but when I turned and saw him, I felt no need to draw it because I knew I could take him, pallet slat or not. I doubt even if I had taken another hit if I would have drawn, I just didn't feel my life was threatened, though the shot he gave me in the head could have killed me if slightly lower. He caught me across the back of the skull right at the ears, made em ring pretty good. I simply took him out with my foot, knee, and then an elbow.

When I was 16 and home with my two younger brothers, someone tried to break into the house late at night. They tried to kick in a steel door, then tried to jimmy a window. I screamed, "I have a gun" and they never slacked up. I slipped open a window and from the safety of the house fired a shotgun full of buckshot into the bushes near where he was. I couldn't get an angle to where he was or probably would have shot at him. Looking back now I would have done different things, but I still today would shoot, I was flat out terrified at that point in time.

I was at a river once with a buddy when a drunk became belligerant with us because we wouldn't give him a ride upstream to a fishing hole. He threatened a couple times to kill us if we didn't take him upstream. We loaded the boat ignoring the tirade and where trying to get it to the point we could just get away, finish it up later. The drunk decided we should just give him the trolling motor. When we refused he said, "I'll fix your , you stupid ignorant suckers." With that he headed for his truck and I drew my .357 blackhawk and kept it just out of sight, but cocked. He opened the door and reached behind the seat, I leveled the gun at his chest from 15yds away and decided if he came out with a gun, I would pull the trigger. When I saw him working to get a paddle out, I decocked and calmed. I figured my buddy who was a black belt in some nasty form of martial arts where you cripple folks who attack you could hold his own. But I knew and was commited to the shot if he came out with a gun.

Now in every situation I made a decision early on what to do, I didn't hesitate on that at all. Two I had rehearsed in my mind before at least in basic detail, two it came as a suprise. Three times I was cool as ice, once so freakin scared I thought I was gonna wet myself. Now between the incident at 16 and the others I had an incident that sorta set my course for my feelings on when to implement lethal force today. I won't talk about it so don't even ask, lets just say that I got shot at and it was a suprise I never saw coming.

Have you set certain things up in your mind as to when you will or won't shoot? I think it might be the biggest part of self defense, you don't need to be asking yourself that question as a guy is halfway through your window. No we can't decide them all, some can't decide at all, I understand in some states your life must be threatened in order to justify lethal force, a perp in your home is not enough. I've thought long and hard about my ideals and morals in regards to my personal choices, my lawyer concurs that my basic shoot, don't shoot situations are legally on solid ground, even though he personally doesn't agree with them, but he aint walked a mile in these shoes.

The biggest shock seems to come when the gun is put away and the incident is over, the knees start to shake, the thumping heart can be felt, and the hands get the jitters. All stuff that was happening a minute ago when you thought your head was clear and your thinking as well, but it wasn't. That alone is why I think it is imparitive that you solve most of the problem in your mind, legally, and morally before you ever step into that position. The tactical part of it, the hours of practice, training, and studying will come back to you and you'll be fine, but the big question that has to be answered you can't do in the midst of a strenous situation.

Now me I am a hard headed decisive person, I make the rules I live by and I don't change them, I don't have a second guesser that pops up during times of stress. Some may not, if you do, how do you deal with that?

Funny how we spend so much time talking and thinking about something we hope we never have to see in person...

 

[Art Eatman]

Lot of factors enter into such decisions. I'm headed toward 70 years of age, and am not trained in martial arts. I like to think I'm a "reasonable and prudent person" as the courts would require, and if in fear for my life or for my family--shame on a Bad Guy.

Art

 

[St. Gunner]

Art my post didn't exactly turn out like I wanted it to. I think on things all the time, try to find a way to make me harder to mess with, yesterday I laid out a board with some nails in it in the one spot left it is easy to cross my fence from where the guy did the other night. A little advanced warning and hopefully make him or the next one realize it might not be a good idea. I figure we do everything we can feasible to negate a threat and that helps in our mental mindset if we are ever called upon to utilize deadly force. If I leave my doors unlocked, have no lighting, and give folks a way to hide what they are doing, when I come home one night to the door ajar and somebody inside, if I end up shooting that person, the mindset of some is going to be, but the way you where set-up you asked for it.

So I lock the door, I keep big dogs, I post signs and am thinking of having some made with the proper section of Texas penal code dealing with the use of deadly force and criminal mischief at night. Cover all the bases, so if it ever happens they look at it and say, "He killed a bunch of dogs to perpatrate this crime, he went past a criminal tresspass sign, and then he kicked over a sign about lethal force for criminal mischief after dark, he had all the warning in the world, he failed to listen to it. It isn't the homeowners fault."

What this was supposed to be about was deciding ahead of time what you are willing to do. I have a buddy who is a real pacifist, just doesn't like physical pain, or the threat of any type of violence. One night we where at a dance and he had been dancing with a young lady all night. About 11:30 her Ex showed up and went ballistic. I grabbed Mike and told him I thought we should just leave, he was fixin to get in a fight. So we headed out, in the parking lot while waiting to get out, the Ex comes out. In my truck the AC was broke and the window was down. He was coming at MIke with murder in his eyes and I knew he was gonna hit him. At that moment, Mike simply froze, unsure what to do next. Later he said, "I didn't know whether to hit him, plead for mercy, or duck, and I couldn't make myself do any of them." I helped him out, right as the guy started to hit him, I popped the clutch and the guy smashd his fist into the pillar behind the door instead of into Mikes head.

Mike spent to much time trying to figure out what to do, you don't ever have that luxury once the threat is there. Sometimes I think my action is to agressive at the start, but I also think sometimes that makes the threat take pause.

I still don't know if the point came across, maybe if not to clearly, somebody else can make it more concise. I seem to be failing the words at the present.

 

[foghornl]

I don't have all of the answers, nor do I pretend to have them. I can only go by my life experiences, but I think I have seen most of the sides of life.

I am not a criminal, nor a person of general felonious intent. {Other than perhaps an incident or 2 in my somewhat mis-spent youth} I am however, a former Auxillary Reserve Deputy Sheriff (left that 25 years back), now a private citizen, and someone who has been the victim of violent crime more times than I really care to admit.

While I do not go out of my way to get in Harm's Way, I am fiercely protective of my home and Loved Ones. After the harrowing experience of survivng what is now popularly called "home invasion",[1980] I have one policy...
Cross my threshold uninvited, and you will be dealt with as the vermin you are. No exceptions.

I have enough lights and motion detectors around my home so that I know when the BG's are skulking about long before they get a chance to break a window or crash a door. I will be prepared and police on the way before they get inside. IF they get inside.

If my point of view seems harsh, well lets say I have been "Hardened by Criminal Actions Against Me".

/////long winded ranting, raving, bile-venting mode off.

 

[pax]

St. Gunner,

I think most people who have decided to carry lethal force have decided, at least in a general way, whether or not they would use it if the circumstances warrant.

Before I first got my gun, I went through a few weeks of constant obsessing about using one: was I prepared to actually kill another human being, to do it coldly and deliberately, under certain circumstances? I honestly did not want the answer to that question to be 'yes,' because saying so, admitting it, was in conflict with being the 'nice' person I wanted to be. So I had to think about possible circumstances and what I would do in certain definite scenarios.

Was I willing to kill a man who tried to rape me? (Was my purity worth defending?) Was I willing to kill a man who tried to kidnap one of my children? Was I willing to kill a man who tried to kill my husband? (Was my family worth defending?) Was I willing to kill a man who tried to murder me? (Was my life worth defending?)

It sounds glib, put like that. Of course my life and my families' lives are worth defending. But it is not glib, and was not arrived at in any easy manner.

One of the reasons I have continued to take gun school classes is because I want to continually be presented with both new and familiar shoot/don't shoot situations.

I drew my gun in one of the scenarios in my most recent class. Technically, it was legal and I could articulate how I felt my life was in danger before the gun came out. But that one came back to me in nightmares later. The reason it did was because I had to ask myself and answer whether I was really willing to kill a man for that.

I think it is better to have such doubts and regrets about play-acting scenarios, in advance of any real life situation, so that your subconscious is freed up to deal with real life as it comes along. If a situation similar to my gun class scenario comes up in real life, I now know whether or not I am willing to draw my gun, put the front sight at center mass, and pull the trigger. That is important knowledge to have. Even if the answer is 'no, I'm not willing to do that,' knowing that answer gives me the ability to look for other solutions rather than standing there frozen.

When I took the Cirillo class, we practiced shooting from downed-defender positions. On one hand, it seems kind of silly: the mechanics of operating a gun remain the same whether you are standing on the firing line or lying flat on your back with the gun above your head. Why bother with looking so silly? Of course you can shoot no matter what position your body is in!

Cirillo explained that several officers, including one he knew personally, have been slain while lying down after being injured, without getting out their guns. Why didn't they get out their guns? Probably because the conscious, problem-solving mind freezes up in a moment of stress, and the subconscious had never been exposed to the idea of shooting from that position. So he now makes sure that his students have been exposed to the idea and the reality of shooting from a downed position.

Good stuff to think about. Thanks for starting the thread.

pax

 

[Art Eatman]

Maybe it's from a whole bunch of years of driving race cars, but I've spent a fair amount of time thinking about the "what if?" aspects of life. I got into the self-defense thing in 1980, insofar as a thought-out mindset. That led me into the ideas from Cooper's "Principles of Personal Defense" and the writings of others--Massad Ayoob, et al.

I've practiced drawing and shooting from all manner of oddball positions and while moving, since over 20 years ago. I've thought about home security stuff: Vision, motion lights, hardened room, rifle/pistol/shotgun--all that stuff.

I dunno. I guess a whole bunch of my reactions could well be described as "pre-planned", dependent on lots of scenarios, whether around the house or out on the street.

I grant that living way out in the boonies at the end of a mile of road across my own property makes a bunch of difference in my needs or scenarios, compared to those folks closer to town.

Art

 

[Jim March]

I have LONG advocated "setting up mentally where your limits are" so there's no hesitation when the balloon goes up. This makes perfect legal and moral sense.

It'll prevent you "screwing up" out of rage (you should NEVER be driven by rage, but by determined concern for innocent human life, your own or others). It also makes you faster.

St. Gunner: every use of deadly force you describe on your part was proper. The bit with the moron and the pallet slat was tactically questionable as a good case can be made that you should have drawn down on him, but you were there and we weren't . (In particular, I'd have been VERY concerned that he wasn't alone.)

Now the question is, in these various incidents, did the whole world seem to "slow down" some? Possibly you had hearing loss, maybe your memory was a hair sketchy afterwards? Emotions went flat, but thinking speed went through the roof? The "after-incident shakes" suggests that you were coming down off of a full "overdrive" reaction. It's not the same as "berzerker rage", "overdrive" is very controlled, and doesn't preclude moral choices such as you made with in the pallet-slat case.

 

[St. Gunner]

Mr. March said:

The bit with the moron and the pallet slat was tactically questionable as a good case can be made that you should have drawn down on him, but you were there and we weren't . (In particular, I'd have been VERY concerned that he wasn't alone.)

He wasn't alone, his buddies where parked about 40yds away, they came over when it was over and carried him to the car. See I put my right foot into his groin hard enough he came off the ground, when he slouched over I brought his head back up with a shot to face with my knee, and then as he was rotating backwards to fall on the ground, I drove an elbow into his eye socket and helped him lay down a little quicker. Then I looked up and saw his pals in the car. He never came to, I bet he had a hell of a headache the next day. At the time the thought of friends never crossed my mind.

Mr. March said:

Now the question is, in these various incidents, did the whole world seem to "slow down" some? Possibly you had hearing loss, maybe your memory was a hair sketchy afterwards? Emotions went flat, but thinking speed went through the roof?

I spent most of my youth fighting, when I started out it was simply mad rage at whomever I was against, I got whipped a bunch. As I got older, I would drift into a zone where I knew what was coming next, I wasn't scared, and I was thinking 3 or 4 moves ahead. I lost one fight since then and it was a three on one deal and I really didn't have a chance. Now I really think on what is happening, I probably haven't hit anyone in anger since 5th grade, haven't slugged anyone without gloves on since the pallet idiot above, but I have realized that the world becomes utterly calm for me when stuff gets tense.

My hearing gets what I would describe as distant in some regards, but more tuned into the mess I am presently involved in. Sorta like I can focus on what is happening totally and shove the other stuff aside.

Memory always seemed to really record every action, sometimes days later I would relive the incident in my dreams. Sometimes waking with the covers ripped almost off the bed.

I would say I have no grasp of emotion, I guess what you are asking is do I wonder and feel pain over the fact I may shoot someone who is also a father, has a wife, or whose mother will miss him, no. It never crosses my mind in the midst of the mess, it does often bug me even today from a couple incidents where someone got hurt badly.

Thinking speed, I guess it would be what my grandpa used to call a fighting mindset, which simply means the whole mind seems to focus on the ways to win a fight, and nothing else. You don't think about the ulcers that have been hurting you, the splitting headache you had, the broken washer, or the current financial crisis, you delve into only this one thing and it seems every part of the brain is working towards the resolution.

A few times the shakes have been so severe I had to go sit and try to bring myself under control, but that was when things slid straight past messed up and headed for disaster. I think that is the healthy type of reaction to this, the one I used to get as a kid to any incident I was shaking before it started which meant I was mad. Mad doesn't win fights, because mad cancels brain function.


Mr. Eatman said:

I grant that living way out in the boonies at the end of a mile of road across my own property makes a bunch of difference in my needs or scenarios, compared to those folks closer to town.

Sometimes... I spent a few years running around on a huge ranch not to far from McAllen Texas. That place was 100X more dangerous than where I live now, or even the City of San Antonio after dark in a bad neighborhood. I spent a few more years chasing dogs and hogs around on a place not to far from the new BP checkpoint out of Cotulla and that piece of ground was some pretty rough country after dark. I spent a short time outside of Chrystal City and that place is the epitome of trouble if you are out after dark.

Funny thing is I moved where I moved to avoid the rifraft, then the sobs came anyway. Hopefully in the near future they will decide to leave in one way or another.

 

[10-Ring]

I had a revolver pointed at me in high school. After that, I told myself if anyone made me feel like I did that night, I'm shootin' first

 

[Jim March]

St. Gunner: I was really asking in order to compare my "overdrive reactions" to yours. Seems there's some differences. In my case, my brain seems to be cutting out hearing to a greater degree, and partially shutting down the short-term memory record function, presumably to gain speed.

I'm not questioning whether or not you can make moral judgements in this state. I know for a fact I can. While the exact "symptoms" seem to differ, the lack of anger driving it is the key.

"Berzerker rage" is a whole nother thing. Been there, done that, when I was 12. NEVER again.

That said, only two of my "overdrive reaction scenes" was anything like "combat". All the rest were either near-motorcycle wrecks or in one case, a natural disaster. My ability to cope with the aftereffects seems to be improving with repeated "exposure".

I'm convinced the human body is putting out a chemical OTHER THAN, or in addition to, adrenalin. Adrenalin reactions have been studied in some depth; whatever this is is a LOT more potent and doesn't affect fine motor control. I know that because one incident involved a dangerous near-bike-wreck in heavy gravel, on an overloaded 400lb Yamaha 650 with street tires. A *very* fine touch on the throttle was required to pull out of that one, and I still had it. In another, I performed a draw and snapopen on a large folding knife while at a dead run to help fend off a pair of attacking dogs.

Hence, I'm quite confident of my ability to handle a gun well under a similar situation.

 

[sm]

Where do you draw the line?

That is something each individial has to really reach inside and be honest with themselves about.

I was raised a certain way, my attitudes, perception of the real world formed quite early. I defined and clarified that "line for myself" as very young kid. I was raised around guns, truth is there was one of two loaded handguns near my crib...as I grew older and other sibs arrived the gun was mine first, but the sibs were taught the same as I.

I've had to make a decision when that line was crossed and and deal with it without using a firearm as a kid. I also had to make a decison and use a firearm to protect myself and younger sibs as a kid.

There have been other lines since and who knows if and when another awaits me.

MY line is still there, the definition of the line has never changed. The only changes have been those of society, politicians, and the mis-information and/or mis-interpretation of the Constitution, BoR, Second Amendment...etc. Bad things happen to good people, its Reality, no matter what the law says, the societal view, or the lies of legislators...there is a line.

I have to train my mind in regards to that line, simply because of litigation. The Reality today is a person is going to face a lot of expense and time to justify what is the correct response. This adds to the problem, because a BG has no regard to "a line", never did. Today the BG knows there is "a line"that actually works in their favor. LEO's spend so much time with the law and documentation to justify any and everything. They do not receive the training , ammo and encouragement to shoot. Citizens are not even educated about even having a choice --heck--most don't know a line ever existed, much less how to deal with a line.

For me a line exists, total clarity and peace of mind of what I must do in a situation. I train to maintain the skill to afford this ability to defend myself when the BG's come across that line.

Another Reality about lines exist, that is when the line is drawn for you. The Human Body , in layman terms has a fight or flight response. I have also had to deal with that one multiple times. That's where the training of using whatever tool ( gun, knife, feet) comes in real handy.

My perception and definition of a "line".

 

[St. Gunner]

10ring,

Yep that will help you figure out what to do the next time, and hopefully how to diffuse it before it happens. The only thing worse than having it leveled at you is having the trigger pulled. It will cause some reactions you refuse to have repeated to you.

Mr. March,

I'm not questioning whether or not you can make moral judgements in this state.

I didn't think you where and figured it was just to compare. But it is a question we all should ask yourself. After lots of fights, several incidents that resulted in guns being drawn, and enough stupid bonehead moves as a kid and even and adult that resulted in placing myself in danger I have come to know that feeling to well somtimes. I think the worst dump I ever had was after attempting to run a canoe down a flooded river and hanging up in a tree, when we finally got to the bank and out of the water I got the shakes so bad I had to just sit for an hour or so. I also don't think fine motor skills suffer, why would the bodies reaction to trouble negate the need to deal with it? It seems counter to everything else our body does.

My stupidity normally involves boats and water, never was much for road rash. That and sneaking into thickets after hogs are chasing them around in grain fields so thick you can't see your feet with dogs(redneck idea of CQB practice).

I think the after effects of stress involving a gun and human encounter and the stress involved in sorting out hogs from dogs and not getting hurt in a thicket is close to the same. I know in the confusion of that mess my trigger control and ability to work the bolt or insert fresh mags seem much better than when I am just plinking. Yes I do sometimes end up with the shakes afterwards, but most people would in some of the messes I have ended up end with hogs. I think that flood of adrenaline or whatever kicks in when you know you are probably going to get hurt.

Re1973,

I think you have thought about it, but counter one set of standards can't really cover everything. I had a guy I knew said, "If someone threatens me or the family with a gun or a knife I will shoot him." Well and good, you have a couple possible solutions to conflict. But what if you walk outside and he is squatting down next to the house with a gan of gasoline and a matchbox? What if you see him breaking into your neighbors home, what if she is old and crippled, or young and single, or a middle aged man, what if the kids are home alone? Are you willing to shoot if you walk into a robbery attempt at the grocery store and they are going to shoot a clerk but the customers seem safe? Would you draw and shoot if you where in a place that said you couldn't have your CHL but you ignored the signs or saw it after you entered and where trying to leave? Will you defend your property, or can the thieves take it without a fight? If some punk just shot your dog and is heading for the house, do you let him in and start the fight within your home, or try to end it before he gets in? The list can go on and on, one set of rules won't cover every situation.

For instance I have a bubble around my house, inside that bubble uninvited I have made the decision your intentions are less than honorable, at one point in that bubble you will not recieve a warning. Does it mean somebody couldn't stand outside my bubble and pump a mag full of ammo into my house, no. But what it means is at the outer edge of that bubble I will wait to see what the deal is, I figure they can't start a fire from 70yds away and if they have a rifle they will have to take aim. I've mulled all that over, so that when something happens I have hopefully already thought it through.

When I used to get in a fight I had a set rule, if as we where having a discussion or if as you where walking up to me you clinched your fists up preparing to fight, i'd hit you first, everytime. Did I hit some guys that might have been just bluffing, yep probably, did I feel remorse for it, nope not at all. I made it blatantly clear from early on that was my guideline, if they where stupid enough to test it, it was their fault.

It should be clear around here, the place is posted, beware of dog signs are out, and the human silohoutte targets out on the range for the world to view should be a clear indication of what may lay in store for any thief.

 

[Art Eatman]

Jim, I definitely agree with "My ability to cope with the aftereffects seems to be improving with repeated "exposure"." I guess that by the time you get to my age there have been more than enough exposures. After my last truly-dangerous experience, my comment to myself was, "Art, you've been doing this too long. You're knees aren't even knocking!"

Art