Shooting a pistol one-handed

[RyanM]

The original poster - to paraphrase - said "I want to practice shooting with one hand with 50 rounds per year because it is easier to learn to shoot with one hand."

Bottom line, if anything someone can learn to shoot easier with two hands.

That is a really, really poor paraphrasing.

Though it was never stated explicitly, the intent at least was "if I were making an attempt to teach someone to shoot a handgun defensively, who cannot afford classes, travel, nor more than 50 practice rounds per year, what technique should I teach them?" Bonus points if it takes less than 2 hours to teach, as a lot of people just do not] have the attention span to make it through 8 hours of instruction without Ritalin.

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Being able to shoot, and hit, with one hand is an important skill. I don't think anyone is agruing that.

The OP originally stated that one hand is better than two hands:

If you'll read my later posts, I clarified my position, mainly by repeating things which everyone glossed over in the first page. One handed shooting is not "better" all around. However, it may be "better" in certain ways so that, if someone were trying to learn defensive handgunning, with zero emphasis on "target" marksmanship, no priorities except getting fast center mass hits at ranges well inside 10 yards, one handed may be the best first technique to learn. Gunfighting does not have to be this mysterious martial art type thing where you have to hit the dojo twice a week for a decade to get a black belt. Fairbairn got a lot of men combat ready in a few short hours.

 

[David E]

A round in the shin/ankle will create structural damage and bring the head down to where you are shooting COM allowing for a better chance of a central nervous system round.

I had specified a "calf flesh wound," not a shin/ankle hit.

Evenso, do you specifically teach folks to try and hit the shin/ankle with the first/only shots, or do you teach them to go center mass ? (pelvis up)

An errant shot that happens to hit the shin/ankle may well work out to your advantage, but it's a poor technique to try on purpose. (unless that's all of the badguy you can see to shoot, but that's not the scenario here.)

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[David E]

Fairbairn got a lot of men combat ready in a few short hours.

I had asked you in Post #78 to define "very basic proficiency."

Could you please define that for us?

.

 

[RyanM]

I must have missed that. I'd say able to reliably hit the chest area (say a 6" to 8" diameter circle) of a human at distances of 0 to 7 (or maybe 5) yards, with every shot. Obviously 2-3" is better, but 6-8" will do.

I know someone's going to say something about skills degrading under stress, but the main reason for that is because people become target-focused, and also may forget to do things right, especially unfamiliar movements. A target-focused technique which uses the body's natural reactions to stress (crouch, focus on target, face target squarely, etc.) is likely to have less degradation of skill.

 

[mercop]

People naturally shoot COM of the available target.

I don't believe that during a dynamic situation when you are moving and so is your attacker that you can aim at the head, hand or whatever. One of the principles of ritualized combat is that people are like compasses when they fight, once the fight starts they seem to back up straight from each other or begin to circle, still facing each other, usually counter clockwise since most people are right handed. Since we are facing each other and the gun is drawn from the waist it stands to reason that when rounds hit they will be around hit from the groin to upper chest.- George

 

[David E]

(very basic proficiency is) I'd say able to reliably hit the chest area (say a 6" to 8" diameter circle) of a human at distances of 0 to 7 (or maybe 5) yards, with every shot. Obviously 2-3" is better, but 6-8" will do.

In what time frame ?

Being able to put the rounds in an 8" circle at 5 yds with no time frame whatsoever is very easy to do, yet has next to zero correlation to self defense skills.

For example, if it takes you 5-8 seconds to put your first shot and each shot thereafter into that circle, that may meet a "very basic proficiency" standard, but you'll never get a single shot off when it counts.

 

[Mr_Rogers]

I think you guys are getting very picky about semantics without really establishing any sensible guidelines. Here's one to chew over.

"Basic proficiency" should include the ability to fire, using a standard carry handgun drawn from a standard carry holster wearing regular street clothing, one round into the 9 or 10 ring of a selected standard target in 1.5 seconds from a range of 5 yards. This target must be of a turning or pop-up type with a presentation time (from hidden to fully-facing) of less than 1/2 second. The test should be carried out against a group of four targets mounted 4 feet apart. The test target is chosen at random from the four in the group. The test is repeated four times, each test with the same scoring requirement.

"Above basic proficiency" is the same test except that the target setting is reduced to 1 second and the range for each shot is varied from 3 feet, to 4 yards, to 8 yards and then to 15 yards.

"Advanced proficiency" is the same as the second test except that the course of fire is repeated in a) low light condition, b) with the shooter standing at different elevations from the target (ie on a platform), and with partially obscured targets (ie upper chest and head only visible or with the target obscured vertically with only 1/2 of the target visible).

I choose these criteria because I think they reflect the most likely trouble scenarios with a carry firearm. My ideas may not be perfect but we must bring a sense of reality into our training. Being an Ace from 7 yards on a stationary target, in broad daylight wearing an exposed holster, proves - nothing.

 

[doc540]

"doc540 wrote


Quote:
Would I try to shoot my snub with both hands in a SD situation?

Absolutely.

Can I shoot it more accurately at the range with one hand?

Yep

Someone educate the internet gun experts as to how that could be true?

It's true because you probably practice more with it,...."



Nope, I practice more two-handed.

It's true because I shoot right-handed with a dominate left eye. I have amblyopia like tens of thousands of people.

In a single-hand, right-side stance I'm simply able to sight better.

 

[mercop]

I believe eye dominance is a non issue in a dynamic scenario, real or created. - George

 

[doc540]

"I believe eye dominance is a non issue in a dynamic scenario, real or created. - George"

Care to explain that to someone who is almost blind in one eye?

 

[mercop]

The only reason I was able to become a police was because I memorized the eye chart. I cannot get a drivers license without a note from my eye doctor because I can't pass the test on the machine.

Most altercations take place at under 7 yards with many under 5 feet. Thanks to ritualized combat we will likely be facing the person we are shooting at. If you can get the barrel of your gun between you and the silhouette of the attacker and pull the trigger you will likely hit them.

Especially at these distances we try to gain distance and our eyes are both wide open trying to feed our mind that is starving for information. The idea is to make sure the gun is between you and your attacker. You do not even need to have it between your eyes and the attacker to land good shots.

During this past weekends course we ran approximately 50-60 force on force scenarios. Nobody recalled using their sights or "aiming" at the bad guy. Only two head shots were recorded and both of them were when a man with a knife was running forward with the head down. The hands took lots of shots.- George

 

[B yond]

Honestly, if yo can't afford to practice a good grip with real ammo, then practice with snap caps or get an airsoft replica and practice with that. You don't need to fire live ammo a whole whole lot for a good (or bad) grip to become second nature.

FWIW, getting an airsoft replica of your carry/SD weapon and playing with it against other people is a great way to learn how you will react under stress (although obviously not as much stress as a real gunfight). It won't recoil like the real one, but things like grip, stance, and point of aim can be practiced fairly cheaply.

 

[mercop]

Agreed, you will also find out how many times you grab a handful of your shirt over your pistol during the draw.- George

 

[David E]

Would I try to shoot my snub with both hands in a SD situation?

Absolutely.

Can I shoot it more accurately at the range with one hand?

Yep

Someone educate the internet gun experts as to how that could be true?

It's true because you probably practice more with it,...."

Nope, I practice more two-handed.

It's true because I shoot right-handed with a dominate left eye. I have amblyopia like tens of thousands of people.

In a single-hand, right-side stance I'm simply able to sight better.

That's not why.

I'd wager it's because you know you need to pay more attention to the basics, so you do.

I'd also wager that if you put even a modest time pressure on the exercise, like, 4 seconds for 5 shots from the holster, then your superior one hand accuracy would go out the door no later than the second shot.

I've noticed many people pronounce themselves "good" just because they can hit a specific target at a specific distance. While the basics may be mastered, when it comes to defensive handgun skills, it takes more than mere accuracy; you need to hit/stop the badguy before he kills you. I can't think of a more compelling time pressure than that.

This is why I frequently mention or ask what the time frame is. Just about anyone can "shoot well" when given all the time in the world to make the shot.

For example, I'm sure most people reading this could draw and hit a basketball at 25 yds, if time were not a factor. But that would change if the time frame went from "unlimited" to "Hit the basketball in 1.5 seconds."

Nothing regarding what must be done in order to make the shot has changed....except the time frame. Suddenly, 99 of 100 who were hitting it everytime suddenly can't hit it at all, or can't get the shot off in 1.5 seconds.

I want to be that 1 of 100 that can STILL hit that basketball in 1.5 seconds.

 

[Mr_Rogers]

We can assume that for most SD situations, as opposed to HD, that three factors are important.
1. You will be fairly close to your opponent and your weapon will be holstered when the event occurs.
2. If you draw a weapon under time pressure, it is likely that you will be required to fire with the least possible delay.
3. If you are under time pressure the firing range will probably be very short.

Under these circumstances an accurate one-handed shot is not only possible, it is desirable. From four feet range a "ten area" hit is quite simply made in 1 second from a suitable holster with no outer garment. Add 0.5 second for a suitable outer garment (eternity for an unsuitable one). The un-aimed shot is taken from whatever stance you happen to be in with the gun in any natural position. The one-handed shot, without sighting, is quite obviously faster than an aimed shot. The required motion of the firearm is less and the time needed to acquire the sights is eliminated. The argument can be made that the time required to use the sights is minimal, this may be true but it is still time - and from four feet it is difficult to miss a CoM sized target. The extra accuracy gained by using sights is not important, the extra speed gained by not carrying out wasted actions is vital.

As simple as this technique may seem it still requires training and practice. Start slow, develop good habits, be self-analytical and self-critical and speed will come.

Always train for reasonable accuracy and speed on the first shot, add more accuracy and extra rounds as time and need permits.

 

[David E]

4 feet or less is one thing. 4 yards or more is quite another.

A 7 yd headshot (badguy holding hostage) is not the best time to try the one hand, no sights, shoot as soon as gun clears the holster technique.

 

[Mr_Rogers]

David,
I was quite specific in my post to state the "why, when and where" I was considering. I did not mention hostages at 7 yards.

It would seem to make sense to practice for the most likely SD situation you are likely to experience as a priority and then to expand ones repertoire. In my case I think that a close in, time critical, event is the most likely possibility. Hostage rescue at 7 yards is a few places down my personal priority list and I would admit, unless the hostage taker was unusually cooperative, I would be unlikely to be successful at making a critical shot under the conditions you specify.

This brings me back to the original post which was, broadly, the idea that there might be a simple, cheap, way to reach basic short range competency with a pistol. My vote would be for unlikely. Regardless of the techniques chosen the underlying body motions required to successfully use a pistol are to a great extent based on some level of muscle memory. We transfer part of our control of the firearm from our brain to our body in order to gain speed and provide us with a consistent movement pattern that our brain and eyes can subsequently modify. That muscle memory only comes from considerable and frequent practice.

Certainly you can learn to point a pistol and hit a target, at close range, with little practice. Whether you can produce the same performance under the stress of likely SD scenarios is doubtful.

 

[mercop]

People have a tendency to get bored with gear and training for what is most likely to happen and decide to concentrate on what could happen.- George

 

[David E]

Interesting.

I've found that some people think things can only happen "one way" and prepare specifically for that and that alone, allowing other basic skills to wither and die.

.

 

[lawboy]

rcmodel has it right.
a simple test would be to shoot an entire IDPA match one handed and just forget your score. I am willing to bet a pistol that the OP could not shoot the course of fire as accurately with one hand as with two, nor as fast, nor as safely. one-handed shooting as a primary technique is wholly without merit.

 

[ojibweindian]

Based upon my IDPA scores, two hands works best for me.

 

[Mr_Rogers]

Gentlemen,
It would be nice to walk an SD course, as you do in competition, but the first time is for keeps. The controlled conditions necessary to make a competition fair remove almost any connection with reality. Trick guns, competition procedures, daylight, thousands of rounds in practice, do not simulate a dark-night behind your local McD's.

I do not see in any of the previous posts that anyone is advocating one-handed shooting as "a primary technique" in the sense of the first choice under any circumstance. Most posters are very clear in stating that one-handed shooting is A tool in the box, not the ONLY tool.

 

[Dutch Dave]

Duelist

In Cowboy Action Shooting I shoot 'Double Duelist". Thats right revolver - right hand------left revolver - left hand. Sometimes I shoot 'Gunfighter' Revolver in each hand - alternating firing the revolvers.

 

[SSN Vet]

I've never shot competitively, but I try to do my homework and practice often.

I actually shoot very well in the one handed "bullseye" position, but I wouldn't ever really consider standing perpendicular to the threat with my strong/holster side forward especially "tactical".

What I've come to like a practice the most is a "draw from concealment" and step into an isocolese stance. This is working pretty well for me.

I had to give up on the Weaver stance. Maybe someday I can get some proper training and try it again, but with my build, I had to bend my neck significantly to get a good sight picture and it just wasn't working out.

I would recommend every CCW permit holder practice shooting one handed (each hand) for familiarization (not necessarily mastery).

I think there's wisdom in this statement

 

[the foot]

For me, I use two hands.

When somebody breaks into my house, the last thing that perp will see is a very old guy, in a modified Weaver stance.