Dr. Sandman
Member
How easy or difficult is it for, say, a police officer with a standard issue sidearm and ammo to shoot flat a modern radial tire by firing at the tread?
Shooting out tires
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cowtownup
Member
I was curious about this so I just went outside and shot all four of the tires on my wife's car out... Its pretty easy... LOL
I am joking obviously, but I would think an officer would have to be a fairly close range to be able to hit the tire of a moving vehicle. I would think penetration would not be a problem.. JMO.. Maybe some of the LEO's on this site who have actually encountered this situation will chime in here...
I am joking obviously, but I would think an officer would have to be a fairly close range to be able to hit the tire of a moving vehicle. I would think penetration would not be a problem.. JMO.. Maybe some of the LEO's on this site who have actually encountered this situation will chime in here...
Small moving targets with potential for the round to skip/ricochet sounds like an awful idea.
LeonCarr
Member
I have seen several tires real world shot out by Highway Patrolman with Mini-14s using 55 Grain FMJs. They usually aimed for the sidewall since the rubber is thinner. You don't see much shooting out of tires anymore since the invention of the Spike Strip.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Ranger Roberts
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I don't think you would have much luck shooting at the tread, the angle that would be needed to hit the tread and not the car would put the shooter pretty far back. Factor in a moving target and a moving chase vehicle, plus just using a sidearm? Not a likely shot. A shooter may have some luck on the sidewall I suppose.
I am surprised this isn't something that Mythbusters has tried. This seems right up their alley.
I am surprised this isn't something that Mythbusters has tried. This seems right up their alley.
Old Dog
Member
Whether or not it's a particularly easy or difficult thing to do isn't really the issue. I've never tried it, so I can't speak to that.
Firing shots at a moving vehicle -- with a fleeing subject inside -- is prohibited by most agencies' policy, mine included.
The only exception would be if someone inside the vehicle is actually shooting at you, or attempting to use the vehicle as a weapon, i.e., run you down. If there is no clear field of fire, you don't take the shot(s). Consider that most roadways have other vehicles present, businesses, residences or pedestrian traffic as well ... All these TV shows and movies depicting officers shooting a fleeing vehicles (especially when it's clearly not a lethal force engagement) are not grounded in current reality (the NM state police shooting notwithstanding, I'm not understanding that one).
Attempting to shoot out tires is a no-go. Radio ahead and have another unit put out the spike strips or perform a PIT maneuver if you're feeling particularly ballsy and you can articulate why you need to immediately stop the suspect vehicle.
Warning shots are also prohibited by policy. If an officer draws his/her weapon and discharges it, it is only to be done so in a lethal force situation.
We see an exception for putting down crippled animals struck by motor vehicles, but there are specific circumstances to be met.
Firing shots at a moving vehicle -- with a fleeing subject inside -- is prohibited by most agencies' policy, mine included.
The only exception would be if someone inside the vehicle is actually shooting at you, or attempting to use the vehicle as a weapon, i.e., run you down. If there is no clear field of fire, you don't take the shot(s). Consider that most roadways have other vehicles present, businesses, residences or pedestrian traffic as well ... All these TV shows and movies depicting officers shooting a fleeing vehicles (especially when it's clearly not a lethal force engagement) are not grounded in current reality (the NM state police shooting notwithstanding, I'm not understanding that one).
Attempting to shoot out tires is a no-go. Radio ahead and have another unit put out the spike strips or perform a PIT maneuver if you're feeling particularly ballsy and you can articulate why you need to immediately stop the suspect vehicle.
Warning shots are also prohibited by policy. If an officer draws his/her weapon and discharges it, it is only to be done so in a lethal force situation.
We see an exception for putting down crippled animals struck by motor vehicles, but there are specific circumstances to be met.
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Dr. Sandman
Member
The NM police video made me curious about the issue. It looks like that LEO is trying to shoot at the tires of the van as it is pulling away.
Do the LEOs use some kind of expanding ammo? Would it help to have AP ammo?
After watching the video ( and I know that I do not have all the facts ), it seems like a really dumb move that would be unlikey to work anyway.
Do the LEOs use some kind of expanding ammo? Would it help to have AP ammo?
After watching the video ( and I know that I do not have all the facts ), it seems like a really dumb move that would be unlikey to work anyway.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Yes, they almost universally use JHP ammo for expansion and best chance of stopping a suspect if a shooting occurs.
Carrying AP ammo in your gun, or on your belt, in the off chance you might get to shoot a tire out is a pretty big stretch of the imagination.
BTW: If you ever watch 'Cops' on TV, you might have seen several dash cam vids showing officers shooting tires out with a 12 ga shotgun & buckshot.
rc
Ranger Roberts
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We use the same type of jacketed hollow point ammo that civilians can use. The only difference? Our's says LE Only on the side of the box. Why? Beats the crap out of me. If I pulled you over and you had a box of it in the car, there is no law that says you can't have it.
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PJSprog
Member
I've seen a video on YouTube - by whom I do not recall - in which someone demonstrated the futility of shooting out tires in order to stop a vehicle, advocating instead to shoot the rim ... the argument being that a rubber tire will somewhat self-heal and take awhile to deflate, while a metal rim does not and deflates almost immediately. His demonstration seemed to prove his theory.
This, however, is an even more difficult shot on a moving target.
This, however, is an even more difficult shot on a moving target.
BSA1
member
From first hand experience one round of #4 buck 12 ga, does quite nicely.
This.
I've personally shot out a few tires. The tire does not instantly go flat, and the car can continue driving and at high speeds and heat the tire self closes anyway. Hisses as if you ran over a nail. If you were to park the vehicle, and come back in half an hour, yeah the tire would be flat. Maybe. Look at bullet holes in rubber. Even a .45 would look like a pinhole after it closes up.
The rim theory does work. I fired a 10mm glock through the rim of a van with a 200 grain hardcast FN full house load, and it deflated the tire within a couple seconds.
Double_J
Member
A while back I saw a story in the paper back home where the local sheriff decided to "stop a pursuit" by shooting out the tires of the fleeing vehicle. This vehicle has evaded one roadblock, and the sheriff (who is under indictment for multiple felony counts) decided to stop the car himself.
The story went that the car evaded at least one roadblock, and the interstate was closed with all traffic cleared away. The sheriff got beside/behind the car and shot the tires out using his issue glock. This is while driving at 80-90 MPH, and shooting using the non-dominant hand (aka left-handed). He did get the vehicle to stop, and he got a picture in the local paper for being such a "brave officer of the law."
I personally think that it is stupid to try to shoot out the tires unless you have NO other choice. Roadblocks and spike strips are very good at slowing/stopping fleeing cars, and you can always just add more cars to the rolling roadblock. I remember the L.A.P.D. using a similar technique to stop O.J. many years ago, and I have seen videos of it being used in pursuits. Tires are hard to hit and can self-heal. The better thing to do is to stop the vehicle and pin it in so it can not move.
The story went that the car evaded at least one roadblock, and the interstate was closed with all traffic cleared away. The sheriff got beside/behind the car and shot the tires out using his issue glock. This is while driving at 80-90 MPH, and shooting using the non-dominant hand (aka left-handed). He did get the vehicle to stop, and he got a picture in the local paper for being such a "brave officer of the law."
I personally think that it is stupid to try to shoot out the tires unless you have NO other choice. Roadblocks and spike strips are very good at slowing/stopping fleeing cars, and you can always just add more cars to the rolling roadblock. I remember the L.A.P.D. using a similar technique to stop O.J. many years ago, and I have seen videos of it being used in pursuits. Tires are hard to hit and can self-heal. The better thing to do is to stop the vehicle and pin it in so it can not move.
Neither my present agency nor my former agency allowed the shooting of tires. If need be we were to shoot the driver instead. But only in very specific circumstances.
Speedo66
Member
We were only allowed to fire at a vehicle if an occupant was shooting. Absent that, not even if the vehicle itself was being used as a weapon.
I worked for a state agency in NYC. We were not allowed to put down an animal for fear of ricochet off the pavement.
I worked for a state agency in NYC. We were not allowed to put down an animal for fear of ricochet off the pavement.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
That is funny, Rembrandt, because Kevlar is a poor stopper of things like ice picks. Thorns and ice picks, basically very pointy items, pass between the fibers and allow for penetration.
Kelvar stops slower bullets (most handgun rounds) by essentially catching them with the fibers and with a LOT more layers than your tire will ever have.
Kelvar stops slower bullets (most handgun rounds) by essentially catching them with the fibers and with a LOT more layers than your tire will ever have.
It can be done. However with many common handgun rounds and buckshot it has a serious risk of ricochet both from the tire and off the road. It still works often enough, but ricochets pretty frequently too.
I recall a threat or story of someone who decided to shoot their own tire on a truck with a shotgun at close range. Much of the shot deflected off and ended up in their own leg.
Rifle rounds would work well. However they would also pose a much greater risk to innocent bystanders and misses could go a very long way.
I do find some of the long police pursuits rather pathetic though. Especially when they end with crashing into some innocent person or family after having gone on for 10-30 minutes with police close to the vehicle several times.
I could be in favor of shots to disable a vehicle if protocols were established to minimize risk to bystanders.
As letting a vehicle run at high speeds, narrowly missing other cars, cutting in and out of traffic, and going through stop signs and lights is letting the driver pose a significant risk of death or serious injury for extended periods of time.
A guy refusing to surrender and waving a gun around would be shot. Someone with a vehicle clearly endangering others should be treated the same way.
Pit maneuvers they evade or get out of, damaging multiple cars. Spike strips that result in the person driving on the rim for another 10+ minutes before losing control and crashing, often into someone else, when the vehicle doesn't handle well due to deflated or missing tires.
I don't see shooting the vehicle to disable it in a controlled manner following certain protocols as so much worse as to not be considered.
I recall a threat or story of someone who decided to shoot their own tire on a truck with a shotgun at close range. Much of the shot deflected off and ended up in their own leg.
Rifle rounds would work well. However they would also pose a much greater risk to innocent bystanders and misses could go a very long way.
I do find some of the long police pursuits rather pathetic though. Especially when they end with crashing into some innocent person or family after having gone on for 10-30 minutes with police close to the vehicle several times.
I could be in favor of shots to disable a vehicle if protocols were established to minimize risk to bystanders.
As letting a vehicle run at high speeds, narrowly missing other cars, cutting in and out of traffic, and going through stop signs and lights is letting the driver pose a significant risk of death or serious injury for extended periods of time.
A guy refusing to surrender and waving a gun around would be shot. Someone with a vehicle clearly endangering others should be treated the same way.
Pit maneuvers they evade or get out of, damaging multiple cars. Spike strips that result in the person driving on the rim for another 10+ minutes before losing control and crashing, often into someone else, when the vehicle doesn't handle well due to deflated or missing tires.
I don't see shooting the vehicle to disable it in a controlled manner following certain protocols as so much worse as to not be considered.
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Dr. Sandman
Member
I was thinking along these lines as well with regard to bullet penetration. It seems to me that an expanding JHP round that may be fired from a sidearm at the tread of a tire as the car drives away from the shooter would expand as soon as it hit the rubber and that would hurt the bullets ability to penetrate the steel belts of a radial tire. I would imagine that an AP round would have much better ability to penetrate the steel belts and flatten the tire. A bullet that stays pointy would penetrate better than a bullet that flattens out as it hits the target.
Have any members out there ever done this IRL? That is to shoot a handgun at the treads of a modern tire as a vehicle drives away from the shooter. It seems like a really bad idea that would not work anyway, and yet, it is what that LEO in NM looked like he was doing or trying to do.
It doesn't work, that why you won't see it anywhere outside of television/movies. A small target with a high liklihood for error.
Mythbusters did do an episode on it. The tire and steering start out stable. The tires deflates quickly and you're riding on the rim. No different that getting a flat tire on the highway. It is the diver's panic that may cause a crash.
Shooting at the sidewall would be like trying to shoot a gun out of a criminals hand. My agencies absolutely prohibits discharging a weapon at a vehicle for the purpose of disabling it. They have for the 18 years I've been a firearms instructor for them.
Remember that the bad guy does not care where his errant rounds go. A good suy might try to shoot out a tire,and may even succeed. But the ricochet that goes through the kid walking a block away...
PIT manuvers and spike strips are the only thing you'll see in real life...
Mythbusters did do an episode on it. The tire and steering start out stable. The tires deflates quickly and you're riding on the rim. No different that getting a flat tire on the highway. It is the diver's panic that may cause a crash.
Shooting at the sidewall would be like trying to shoot a gun out of a criminals hand. My agencies absolutely prohibits discharging a weapon at a vehicle for the purpose of disabling it. They have for the 18 years I've been a firearms instructor for them.
Remember that the bad guy does not care where his errant rounds go. A good suy might try to shoot out a tire,and may even succeed. But the ricochet that goes through the kid walking a block away...
PIT manuvers and spike strips are the only thing you'll see in real life...
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