Shortcomings of Pump Shotgun Shown in 1986 Miami FBI Shootout?

[Youngster]

The lesson I've taken from this incident after revisiting it many times is that handguns are a last ditch defensive weapon only. If All the FBI agents rolled out of their cars with pump shotguns stoked with 00 buckshot, things would have been different. But they brought revolvers to a rifle fight.

Shotguns are great indoors or in close complex terrain but they wouldn't be my first choice in a relatively open space where sustained fire and defeating barriers could be called for.

 

[dogtown tom]

leadcounsel I just have to wonder:

In 1986, the common arms available were......Tokarev pistols in 7.62x25mm with 8 or 9 round mags

 

[leadcounsel]

@ dogtown tom:

The point of illustration is that the 7.62x39 ballistics EXISTED (being roughly parallel to the later introduced .357 Sig, .40SW, and 10mm) at the time and were in a semi-auto platform. Hindsight being 20/20, it seems that folks should have realized at the time that the .38+P was inadequate for this type of work.

Just pointing out that with a revolver and shotgun, these guys each had only 11-13 shots total before a reload was necessary! That seems insane for this type of work, looking for violent armed felons...

 

[orangeninja]

I only read page 1 of the thread so forgive me if this was pointed out.

I agree that Platt was the only one in the proper mindset when the fight started.

I also agree that a shotgun is not the best weapon to use against targets who have cover unless you are equipped to fire on targets who have cover, these agents were not.

I think the carbine was the most appropriate weapon for that particular fight but no substitute for mindest. Honestly I think if Platt had a 30-30 he would have done similar damage...it's really the man and not the weapon. And yes, these were the exception to the rule.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

If the FBI had been using Sabot Slugs it might have turned out better.

 

[orangeninja]

If the agents had been carrying .357 rounds in their .357s it would have turned out differently too.

 

[kb58]

The lesson I've taken from this incident after revisiting it many times is that handguns are a last ditch defensive weapon only. If All the FBI agents rolled out of their cars with pump shotguns stoked with 00 buckshot, things would have been different. But they brought revolvers to a rifle fight.

This has been so well-known for decades that there's even an expression, "A pistol is for fighting your way back to your rifle."

 

[SHR970]

And if the FBI Agents didn't underestimate their opponents they would have come out better also. Platt had been an Army Ranger; they didn't know this but that was an important part of the story. Platt was well trained and willing to execute that training. NEVER underestimate your opponent or their willingness to do harm to you.

There is a sound reason for the Mozambique drill. People perform as they are trained; if all you practice is COM shots (like regular law enforcement personnel are required to) that is what you will do under stress. Don't be surprised when someone fails to go down after you pump rounds at their COM. Note I said AT; doesn't mean that under extreme stress that you actually hit where you want to.

 

[Sicari]

At the time, there was a concerted effort to brainwash LEOs that most fire fights consisted of 2-4 shots fired and cops didn't "need" auto pistols.

 

[ugaarguy]

Pulling some bits of info out of the report, I've observed:
The firefight lasted about 4.5 to 6 minutes in it's entirety.

Agent McNeill's 5th & 6th rounds of .38 Spl +P, all fired within the first minute of the fight, knocked Matix out for several minutes, took him out of the fight completely, and he didn't fire another round. Matix likely would have died of blood loss from those wounds had one of Mireles' last rounds fired not severed Matix' spinal cord killing him then.

Agent Dove's first shot with his 9mm pistol (with 1986 bullet technology), very early in the fight, and that wound was the primary cause of Platt's death. Platt had a fatal wound, but he kept fighting & killing for another 3 to 4.5 minutes.

Mireles finally ended the fight by closing with, and firing 6 rounds of .38 Spl +P (5 of which hit) into Matix & Platt at point blank range.

I'm not convinced that handguns with marginally better ballistics would have made a significant difference. I think it's safe to assume that if all the agents were armed with long guns (shotguns & or carbines) loaded with appropriate ammo (hard alloyed lead slugs in shotguns, bonded core bullets in carbines) would have ended the fight sooner, and possibly saved the agents lives. However, Platt was a nightmare of a criminal armed with a very capable weapon. It was bound to be ugly no matter what. If the agents were better armed it could have just been less ugly.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
McNeill: S&W M19-3 .357 Magnum revolver, 2-inch barrel (6 rounds .38 Special +P fired). ....
Mireles: Remington M870 12 gauge shotgun (5 rounds 2 3/4 inch 00 buckshot fired),
.357 Magnum revolver (make & model unknown), (6 rounds .38 Special +P fired). ....
Dove: S&W M459 9mm automatic pistol (20 rounds fired). ...

McNeill’s bullet hit him, producing head wound F. The bullet hit Matix just forward of his right ear, below the temple, shattered the cheek bone, hit and fractured the base of the cranium, and entered the right sinus cavity under the eye. This hit bruised the brain (but did not penetrate the cranium or brain) and Dr. Anderson believes it most probably knocked Matix instantly unconscious. ... McNeill’s sixth shot hit Matix, causing the third wound, right neck/chest wound B. ... Dr. Anderson feels this wound would have ultimately been fatal, due to the severed blood vessels. Bleeding from this injury during the next 2-3 minutes caused almost a liter of blood to accumulate in the chest cavity. However, for the next minute, it is believed that Matix slumped over onto his back and lay unconscious on the front seat of the Monte Carlo.


II. The Initial Hits on Platt: Platt Exiting the Monte Carlo

Platt’s 1st gunshot wound (right upper arm/chest wound B) - Dove ...

At autopsy, Platt’s right lung was completely collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1300 ml of blood, suggesting damage to the main blood vessels of the right lung. Dr. Anderson believes that Platt’s first wound (right upper arm/chest wound B) was unsurvivable, and was the primary injury responsible for Platt’s death. ...

Mireles then drew his .357 Magnum revolver, got to his feet, moved laterally about 15 feet parallel with the street, clear of McNeill’s car, and then began walking directly towards Platt and Matix, who were sitting in Grogan/Dove’s car. Mireles fired six rounds of .38 Special +P from his revolver. Mireles revolver shots 1 and 2 were fired at Platt, shots 3, 4 and 5 at Matix, and shot 6 at Platt. Five of the six bullets hit Platt or Matix. ...

Mireles’ fourth bullet (Matix face/spine wound C)... ....severed the spinal cord at the base of T1.

sixth and final shot. Mireles extended his gun through the driver’s side window and fired at Platt (Platt chest/spine wound J)... ...stopped in the fifth cervical vertebra (C5), where it bruised the spinal cord... ...Mireles’ sixth and final shot ended the gunfight.

Dr. Anderson’s book follows the chronology of the gunfight and addresses each of Matix’s and Platt’s wounds in the chronological order in which each was inflicted. He has broken the gunfight down into four distinct phases as follows:

I. The first encounter: Platt and Matix inside the Monte Carlo
(estimated duration: approximately 1 minute)
II. The initial hits on Platt: Platt exiting the Monte Carlo
(estimated duration: several seconds)
III. Platt’s devastating attack: Platt outside the Monte Carlo
(estimated duration: approximately 1½ minutes)
IV. The final fusillade: Platt and Matix in Grogan/Dove’s car
(estimated duration of approximately 1½ - 2 minutes).

 

[lemaymiami]

Reading the after action analysis is fine - but it simply doesn't address the core issue that day. You can change the weapons, the ammo, maybe even say a prayer for different weather.... none of that changes the fact that the good guys chose to go toe to toe at almost pointblank range with an individual determined to go down and take as many as possible with him. I don't know if there's a technical name for it but I consider it an extremely aggressive form of suicide on the part of those two robber/killers. All too much of the philosophy behind officer weapons training to that date simply ignored that possibility and focused on the common weapons scenario that most officers might face once in their lifetimes.

I know that after that incident all of my focus as a police commander involved getting my crew or crews to operate as safely as possible. In many instances that means not so much having superior firepower but designing a pre-planned takedown so that we had all the advantages and the targets had as few as we could manage. Using only shotguns and pistols those two guys should have been dealt with before they could fire a shot - but you have to plan and train for that kind of response. The moment those agents chose to ram the getaway car and force the issue, that guaranteed a bad outcome. The best history lesson I can think of off-hand is the difference between the early attempts at dealing with motor bandits back in the Depression era, compared to how they were finally dealt with once the various police forces had been on the losing end. There's a tremendous difference in tactics in the takedowns of "Bonnie & Clyde" or John Dillinger when the police were finally successfull and earlier attempts (that gave every advantage to the offenders).

By the way, after that incident and a few others I decided that if you were going to come to the party it was probably a good idea to bring what was needed. The second item that I picked up after my shotgun when weapons were likely was a soft cloth bandolier with an addtional 30 rounds. I never needed it, thank god. Once you make a policy of having your SRT involved if there's any possibility you're going to need them makes all the difference. Ours was armed with mostly suppressed MP-5's, but at least two members were always shotgunners...

 

[Shawn Dodson]

The collision knocked off Grogan's eye glasses, making it impossible for him to see."

I spoke with the FBI Medical Director years ago when he contacted me about an article I'd written, titled "Sighting-in on Visual Acuity", which had been published in Law and Order magazine. I asked him about Grogan's subnormal vision and he said it really wasn't that bad.

Grogan IS credited with getting the first hit - on Matix (forearm) when he leaned out the Monte Carlo to shoot his shotgun at Grogan and Dove.

Grogan fired nine shots during the gunfight. This suggests to me that he was disciplined in his shooting. He fired only when he had a target to shoot at.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

So why in the world were the agencies under-gunned???

The Agents weren't equipped and didn't plan on taking them down. As I recall, they did it because they didn't want them to get on the highway. The team that was supposed to take them down wasn't nearby and they were equipped.

 

[ugaarguy]

Reading the after action analysis is fine - but it simply doesn't address the core issue that day. You can change the weapons, the ammo, maybe even say a prayer for different weather.... none of that changes the fact that the good guys chose to go toe to toe at almost pointblank range with an individual determined to go down and take as many as possible with him. I don't know if there's a technical name for it but I consider it an extremely aggressive form of suicide on the part of those two robber/killers. All too much of the philosophy behind officer weapons training to that date simply ignored that possibility and focused on the common weapons scenario that most officers might face once in their lifetimes.

I know that after that incident all of my focus as a police commander involved getting my crew or crews to operate as safely as possible. In many instances that means not so much having superior firepower but designing a pre-planned takedown so that we had all the advantages and the targets had as few as we could manage. Using only shotguns and pistols those two guys should have been dealt with before they could fire a shot - but you have to plan and train for that kind of response. The moment those agents chose to ram the getaway car and force the issue, that guaranteed a bad outcome.

I'll default to your obviously more knowledgeable & experienced opinion on the matter. Looking back at the AAR & your comments I now have a better understanding. I also see what you're saying about slight improvements in the weapons not mattering. As the report states the handguns the agents had inflicted lethal wounds on both assailants. Matix was even taken out of the fight very early in by handgun fire. As you state, and I now understand, not only was Platt highly trained & determined, but the manner of the stop gave Platt the space & opportunity to use his determination & training to devastating effect.

 

[twofifty]

armchairing it

Why would this FBI team not want the BGs to get onto the highway (I-95?).

Aren't cars easier to spot from the air then follow & intercept when on an interstate? This might have given the swat team time to plan an intercept.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

They were already following them, they knew where they were and I have the feeling that they didn't have an aircraft to track them. I also have a feeling they weren't equipped for a pursuit as it would be harder to stop them.