rc109a
Member
I guess I could go buy ammo for this one particular rifle and reload for all the other rifles and pistols I own, but it seems like a waste to me. I still don't think it solves the original problem about consistency though.
Should I get rid of it?
- Thread starter rc109a
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Franco2shoot
Member
Might just be me, but a "NEW Outta the Box" rifle in .308 ought to be able to maintain 1 MOA at least for my money.
I have a Remington Model 7 that I purchased used, and bench rested, it maintains 1 MOA. It likes 165 grain but performed well from day one. I have a VERY used 1943 Mosin 91/30, that initiallly delivered 3 MOA, but after significant cleaning (I mean J&R red and Grey rouge spun with a 3/4 inch drill) and then Corking the barrel with thin slices of cork under the 1st band, it started punching a ragged hole and delivering 1MOA all for about 130 bucks (40 bucks for the WallyWorld scope). A lot more effort went into getting the performance to match the Remington, but it was cheap.
I practice shooting a paper plate 100 yards away, and taped to a 1/4 inch steel plate from sitting and standing positions and love to hear that ring as the bullet goes right through the plate with either .308 or 7.62x54r. Those are my data points, and it sure seems you should be able to duplicate these results.
KKKKFL
I have a Remington Model 7 that I purchased used, and bench rested, it maintains 1 MOA. It likes 165 grain but performed well from day one. I have a VERY used 1943 Mosin 91/30, that initiallly delivered 3 MOA, but after significant cleaning (I mean J&R red and Grey rouge spun with a 3/4 inch drill) and then Corking the barrel with thin slices of cork under the 1st band, it started punching a ragged hole and delivering 1MOA all for about 130 bucks (40 bucks for the WallyWorld scope). A lot more effort went into getting the performance to match the Remington, but it was cheap.
I practice shooting a paper plate 100 yards away, and taped to a 1/4 inch steel plate from sitting and standing positions and love to hear that ring as the bullet goes right through the plate with either .308 or 7.62x54r. Those are my data points, and it sure seems you should be able to duplicate these results.
KKKKFL
rc109a, you won't like my answer but I'll be honest. You should get rid of the rifle and not do any reloading. What bothers me is is you got 3" groups, Savage got 1". I know that would bother me were I in your shoes. Plain a simple, you're doing something wrong. Without someone watching and helping you I doubt you'll be able to identify what you're doing wrong.
You didn't mention anything about what you've loaded for this rifle. Tell me what powder, how much, what bullet and primer you're using. I once had a scale that fluctuated giving bad results that had me going through what you are.
You didn't mention anything about what you've loaded for this rifle. Tell me what powder, how much, what bullet and primer you're using. I once had a scale that fluctuated giving bad results that had me going through what you are.
KodiakBeer
member
There are so many little tricks to making a rifle shoot better. The easiest trick (from fifty years ago) is to just stick a matchbook cover or similar piece of cardboard between the forearm and barrel and see if the dampening effect reduces the groups. Most of the time it will. If it does, you can glass bed the stock, or just replace the matchbook cover every year.
The only rifle I've ever owned that really didn't shoot good enough for hunting was a Ruger #1 that wanted to string vertically as the barrel warmed. Over 15 or 20 shots the hits would spread upward over 6 inches. It didn't bother me much because the first shot or two landed right where they were supposed to. I just popped some cardboard under the forearm and the vertical stringing went down to about 3 inches. Some time later a friend said he could fix that and bedded a tension screw in the forearm. I then tightened and loosened the screw until I found the right amount of tension that fixed the group to about 2 inches. Still not a tack driver, but I managed to bust a trotting caribou at a paced 450 yards with no trouble.
Anyway, that first cold shot is the only one that counts. Zero for that first shot and don't obsess about those later shots. Personally. I've always reloaded for the hottest load with a good hunting bullet (usually a Nosler Partition). I don't care if I get better groups with lighter load and a different bullet because I'm hunting, not target shooting. If the bullet hits the critters chest and goes all the way through, then I'm quite happy.
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The only rifle I've ever owned that really didn't shoot good enough for hunting was a Ruger #1 that wanted to string vertically as the barrel warmed. Over 15 or 20 shots the hits would spread upward over 6 inches. It didn't bother me much because the first shot or two landed right where they were supposed to. I just popped some cardboard under the forearm and the vertical stringing went down to about 3 inches. Some time later a friend said he could fix that and bedded a tension screw in the forearm. I then tightened and loosened the screw until I found the right amount of tension that fixed the group to about 2 inches. Still not a tack driver, but I managed to bust a trotting caribou at a paced 450 yards with no trouble.
Anyway, that first cold shot is the only one that counts. Zero for that first shot and don't obsess about those later shots. Personally. I've always reloaded for the hottest load with a good hunting bullet (usually a Nosler Partition). I don't care if I get better groups with lighter load and a different bullet because I'm hunting, not target shooting. If the bullet hits the critters chest and goes all the way through, then I'm quite happy.
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Black Butte
Member
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It sounds like 1.5" is the rifle and 1.5" is your shooting. 1.5 + 1.5 = 3"
A rifle that shoots a minute and a half of angle is hardly anything worth making a fuss over, unless you plan to shoot competition with it.
A rifle that shoots a minute and a half of angle is hardly anything worth making a fuss over, unless you plan to shoot competition with it.
igousigloo
Member
Just sell it and buy something you like.
arizona98tj
Member
rc109a,
If I had a rifle that shot 3" or more regardless of what I tried....and I then sent it back to the manufacturer....who tells me they got nearly a 1" group out of it (and told me what ammo they used to do so), the first thing I would do is buy a box of that ammo (TAP in this case) and try it for myself. I honestly would want to see this thing do what Savage said it could do.
If I then got the claimed 1" group, I would then put that round over a chronograph to check the velocity. I believe one can find what bullet the TAP ammo is loaded with? If so, a box of those bullets please from the local gun shop....and to the reloading bench I would go. A couple of the more popular .308 Win powders would be on the bench and I would start working up a load for it. It would be a great place to start knowing what weight bullet and velocity works in the rifle.
Good luck
If I had a rifle that shot 3" or more regardless of what I tried....and I then sent it back to the manufacturer....who tells me they got nearly a 1" group out of it (and told me what ammo they used to do so), the first thing I would do is buy a box of that ammo (TAP in this case) and try it for myself. I honestly would want to see this thing do what Savage said it could do.
If I then got the claimed 1" group, I would then put that round over a chronograph to check the velocity. I believe one can find what bullet the TAP ammo is loaded with? If so, a box of those bullets please from the local gun shop....and to the reloading bench I would go. A couple of the more popular .308 Win powders would be on the bench and I would start working up a load for it. It would be a great place to start knowing what weight bullet and velocity works in the rifle.
Good luck
Fullboar1
Member
rc109a said:
I doubt you would have had any trouble with the Tikka shooting to its accuracy guarantee (1" (Sub MOA) 3 shot groups @ 100 yards with hunting ammo. If it's a Varmint model with the heavy barrel then the guarantee is with 5 shots). If you are not happy just sell it and buy a Tikka. I also had some trouble with Savage I got one of the model 12's with the heavy barrel and the DBM and it shot pretty well but it fouled the bore really bad and I had a hell of a time finding a handload it liked so I gave it to my dad and he likes it. I have a couple of other savages (rimfires) and they have been good. From my experiance with Tikka's (I have 5 of them) they shoot everything really well so its easy to find a handload they like, the fit and finish is great, the trigger is as good as any aftermarket one, the barrels don't have any trouble fouling, they also have really good resale value. For the money you wont find a better gun.
lefteyedom
Member
Go back to the basics.
1. Scope, even high dollar scopes sometimes go bad and not hold.
2. Scope mounting hardware
3. bedding? does the barrel make contact with the stock?
4. tightness (torque) of the stock screws.
5. is there a sling mount making contact with the bench
5. The shooting bench, is it weighted correctly?
6. are you use a sand bag type rest?
Yes there a ton of possibles, but often the problem is in the basic stuff.
1. Scope, even high dollar scopes sometimes go bad and not hold.
2. Scope mounting hardware
3. bedding? does the barrel make contact with the stock?
4. tightness (torque) of the stock screws.
5. is there a sling mount making contact with the bench
5. The shooting bench, is it weighted correctly?
6. are you use a sand bag type rest?
Yes there a ton of possibles, but often the problem is in the basic stuff.
rc109a
Member
Thanks for all the advice (except for one who feels like I should just quit reloading altogether. I will take the high road regarding my response). When i get it back I will look it over. I will try another new scope (4th one), new rings, base, and verify the torque setting again (no idea how many times I have done this with three different wrenches), and the TAP ammunition. The stock is the accustock. I have tried a lead sled. Since Savage has looked it over maybe they did something else to the rifle.
Kodiak: I will give that a try. The problem was the first shot on the cold bore never seems to be in the same spot. Three different days and different points of impact without any scope adjustments. Not very consistent (even tried different shooters). This really cannot hurt to try.
For those who asked, I have been reloading for only 10 years. I load for several other calibers and those rifles shot groups are sub-moa (with a few minor exceptions). I guess since I cannot get this one rifle load correctly I should just give up and quit..."sarcasm".
Now I know I cannot do that in the standing position, but I get really close in the kneeling, sitting, and prone. I am not a great shot, but I can hold my own (guess 20+ years in the .mil helps). Once again thanks for the constructive advice.
Kodiak: I will give that a try. The problem was the first shot on the cold bore never seems to be in the same spot. Three different days and different points of impact without any scope adjustments. Not very consistent (even tried different shooters). This really cannot hurt to try.
For those who asked, I have been reloading for only 10 years. I load for several other calibers and those rifles shot groups are sub-moa (with a few minor exceptions). I guess since I cannot get this one rifle load correctly I should just give up and quit..."sarcasm".
Now I know I cannot do that in the standing position, but I get really close in the kneeling, sitting, and prone. I am not a great shot, but I can hold my own (guess 20+ years in the .mil helps). Once again thanks for the constructive advice.
rc109a:
I'll try to keep this short.
If the rifle won't shoot, I assume that it is the rifle, not me. I know how well I shoot. My old "hobby" was to photocopy my Weatherby's factory targets and beat them. Of all my Weatherby's there was only one I could not beat. The factory fired with a vise; me? A benchrest. I shoot very well.
Now, my first Weatherby Mark V was a Fibermark chambered in .270 Wea Mag. I received the rifle, mounted the scope, and set out to the range with some $28.00 boxes of Weatherby factory loaded 130 grain spire point ammo. I set my targets, looked at the photocopy of the factory's 1.25" target and planned to spank it good!
I spent the next only-God-knows-how-long, and how-many-rounds trying to get that piece of feces on target, let alone to group!!! To say that I was "urinated-off" is a grotesque understatement. I took it back to where I bought it. They lapped the barrel.
I returned to the range, and posted my targets. This piece of junk was printing 10" groups. I returned it to Weatherby about 5 days before I was to depart for a black bear hunt. Weatherby contacted me and advised me that the barrel was, "out-of-round, and the barrel had been threads crooked into the receiver".
When I went back to Johnson Sporting Good in Adrian, MI, I told them about the finding. Their basic retort, "Yeah. We knew, but we thought it would still shoot right". The lessons learned: never do business with Johnson Sporting Good in Adrian, MI. They are dishonest. Yes, they lost my business. Lesson 2, know how well you shoot, and if the rifle doesn't live up to your ability, get rid of it. Advise the new owner honestly of what, if anything, is wrong with it.
Geno
I'll try to keep this short.
If the rifle won't shoot, I assume that it is the rifle, not me. I know how well I shoot. My old "hobby" was to photocopy my Weatherby's factory targets and beat them. Of all my Weatherby's there was only one I could not beat. The factory fired with a vise; me? A benchrest. I shoot very well.Now, my first Weatherby Mark V was a Fibermark chambered in .270 Wea Mag. I received the rifle, mounted the scope, and set out to the range with some $28.00 boxes of Weatherby factory loaded 130 grain spire point ammo. I set my targets, looked at the photocopy of the factory's 1.25" target and planned to spank it good!
I spent the next only-God-knows-how-long, and how-many-rounds trying to get that piece of feces on target, let alone to group!!! To say that I was "urinated-off" is a grotesque understatement. I took it back to where I bought it. They lapped the barrel.
I returned to the range, and posted my targets. This piece of junk was printing 10" groups. I returned it to Weatherby about 5 days before I was to depart for a black bear hunt. Weatherby contacted me and advised me that the barrel was, "out-of-round, and the barrel had been threads crooked into the receiver".
When I went back to Johnson Sporting Good in Adrian, MI, I told them about the finding. Their basic retort, "Yeah. We knew, but we thought it would still shoot right". The lessons learned: never do business with Johnson Sporting Good in Adrian, MI. They are dishonest. Yes, they lost my business. Lesson 2, know how well you shoot, and if the rifle doesn't live up to your ability, get rid of it. Advise the new owner honestly of what, if anything, is wrong with it.
Geno
I was having a similar problem as the OP with my new Savage 11FNS .308. A buddy of mine suggested the first thing to do is "change ammo". Switching from Federal Fusion 165gr to Honady Match 168gr BTHP made a big improvement zeroing off sandbags.
BoilerUP
Member
I'll give ya $250 for the piece of shizz...
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