Sig arm brace -- important legal update

[Sam1911]

If the lower is purchased as a pistol, then registered as an SBR, can you then sell the upper and use it again as a pistol without a stock on it? It's "once a rifle, always a rifle" correct?

Nope. "Once a rifle..." (in regards to pistol conversions) went away with the rules adjustment in 2011: https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

And the ATF is very clear that once an SBR has had the barrel removed or swapped to a 16"+ barrel, it is no longer an NFA item.

Can the SB15 be used to carry a spare magazine? YES/NO, and your reasons based on other BATF letters, which admittedly don't apply to anyone except the addressee.

What do you mean? The ATF defines the gun -- what it is and what is isn't. They've been clear that how you choose to use it doesn't have any bearing on whether it is a rifle, pistol, SBR, etc.

Can you use a spare mag carrier on the pistol buffer tube? The CAA and Thorsden combo comes to mind. Or, a web carrier than slips over the tube and holds one mag. For that matter, two.

What do these things mean? Why would how you carry a magazine change anything about the legal status of the firearm?

 

[Elkins45]

And the ATF is very clear that once an SBR has had the barrel removed or swapped to a 16"+ barrel, it is no longer an NFA item.

This is one of the reasons I decided to engrave my trust information on the barrel rather than the lower on my Colt SBR AR. If needed I can put the original upper back on it and it bears no sign of having ever been an NFA item.

 

[Sam1911]

Well, true, but then you shouldn't be using it with any other short barrels (as it would then be an NFA weapon without proper serialization), and an AR screams for multiple setups.

Kind of a Catch 22, but I think I'd just deal with the engraving somewhere on the lower...

I mean, a replacement lower's what, $60 anyway at this point?

 

[dogtown tom]

Tirod If the lower is purchased as a pistol,

AR lowers, frames and receivers cannot be purchased as "a pistol".....they are "Other Firearms".

then registered as an SBR, can you then sell the upper and use it again as a pistol without a stock on it? It's "once a rifle, always a rifle" correct?

A firearm built first as pistol, may be converted to rifle, then back to pistol.
A firearm that is first a rifle, is always a rifle.

Can the SB15 be used to carry a spare magazine? YES/NO, and your reasons based on other BATF letters, which admittedly don't apply to anyone except the addressee.

The ability to carry a spare magazine isn't prohibited by any Federal law or ATF regulation.....so YES.

Can you use a spare mag carrier on the pistol buffer tube? The CAA and Thorsden combo comes to mind. Or, a web carrier than slips over the tube and holds one mag. For that matter, two.

Sure. No Federal law that says you can't.

 

[dogtown tom]

Elkins45

Quote:
And the ATF is very clear that once an SBR has had the barrel removed or swapped to a 16"+ barrel, it is no longer an NFA item.

This is one of the reasons I decided to engrave my trust information on the barrel rather than the lower on my Colt SBR AR. If needed I can put the original upper back on it and it bears no sign of having ever been an NFA item.

Which costs more, an AR lower or a barrel?
Folks need to think about that when choosing a place to engrave the makers name and city. It is almost impossible to sell a receiver, barrel or upper that has someone other than the factory's name on it.

That's why I only buy factory SBR's and SBS's...........no one else's name.

 

[Elkins45]

Well, true, but then you shouldn't be using it with any other short barrels (as it would then be an NFA weapon without proper serialization), and an AR screams for multiple setups.

Kind of a Catch 22, but I think I'd just deal with the engraving somewhere on the lower...

I mean, a replacement lower's what, $60 anyway at this point?

Any other barrels will also be engraved.

Can you get a Colt lower that also comes with an approved Form 4 bearing it's serial number for $60?

 

[Sam1911]

Nope!

 

[kimberkid]

If the lower is purchased as a pistol, then registered as an SBR, can you then sell the upper and use it again as a pistol without a stock on it? It's "once a rifle, always a rifle" correct?

Not correct in the NFA world ... I didn't write a letter but I called in 2007 prior to doing my first SBR and was told:

If you buy it as a rifle it's always a rifle. You can SBR a pistol and have an SBR'd pistol removed from the registry and it becomes a pistol again ... However if you take that same receiver, then put a 16" or longer barrel on it, then it becomes a rifle and the "once a rifle, always a rifle" applies.

Your other questions, I don't know

 

[Sam1911]

Yes, in 2007, that was the rule.

In 2011 they published the change I posted above and that is no longer the rule.

If it starts as a pistol or "other" it doesn't ever fall into the "once a rifle, always a rifle" trap.

 

[Tirod]

So, if the rule doesn't exist, I can alter my 16" carbine by sliding off the stock, installing a 12" barrel, and call it a pistol. At any time I choose.

Correct?

 

[Sam1911]

Yup! So long as it started as a pistol or "other firearm."

(If it was sold originally as a stocked rifle, this doesn't apply.)

 

[Sam1911]

(The depths and legal contortions we'd have to go to to predict how this could ever be enforceable are pretty funny, but the ATF had to come up with something to tell people, so they chose to say if it was originally sold as a rifle, it's a rifle. Makes no practical sense, and probably couldn't survive a serious court challenge, but if they don't ever try to enforce it that won't matter.)

 

[Tirod]

It was sold as a stripped lower, and I believe at the time the form was marked rifle. About three years ago.

So, FIRST a rifle always a rifle? I'm still seeing two different answers. If I can't, then it's because a rifle can't be a pistol if the BATF determines it was first a rifle. Therefore all the rifle owners who convert their lowers to pistol configuration are doing so illegally.

Of course, we don't expect anyone to say they did.

As for the mag carrier, instead of a wrist brace a box magazine pouch installed on the buffer tube with a 20 rounder in it. It's not a shoulder stock, it's a spare mag carrier. It would be under the tube with the bottom of the mag toward the shoulder.

 

[Sam1911]

... and I believe at the time the form was marked rifle.

Several points about that.
1) The dealer screwed up, if that's what he put on the form. The instructions are clear about receivers and he should have known better.
2) This points out the absurdity of any sort of rule that tries to apply to what a gun once was, sometime. What matters here? IF the BATFE ever tried to enforce this, what would they go by? The dealer's 4473? Well, that was filled out in error. The manufacturer's records? Well, they shipped a bare receiver. That's what it WAS, when it arrived at the dealer's shop. But, of course, EVERY AR15 starts the same way. There is no difference at all -- not one atom's worth -- between a pistol receiver and a rifle receiver.

So, FIRST a rifle always a rifle? I'm still seeing two different answers.

Again, an absurdity of the way they say they want to try to enforce this. When you walked out of the dealer's shop it was (or should have been) an "other firearm." You then took it home and did WHAT with it? No one in the world could possibly say, definitively, except you. It probably is "covering your butt" to say you built it as a pistol first, but that's just your word against anyone else's word ... but NO ONE would have any better claim to make than you do, and you were there.

Especially considering that an AR15 "pistol" can be built with a rifle buffer tube, the difference is completely immaterial! Did you put your buffer tube on before you installed the stock? Of course you did. (You couldn't have done otherwise.) Then for a moment, at least, you'd constructed an "other firearm" at least, and maybe a handgun. (That would depend on whether the whole package was under or over 26".

I postulate that this is a completely unenforceable "rule" and they know it. They had to say something but "awww, shucks, we can't possibly say one way or the other," just ins't something they can admit.

If I can't, then it's because a rifle can't be a pistol if the BATF determines it was first a rifle. Therefore all the rifle owners who convert their lowers to pistol configuration are doing so illegally.

Again, a distinction without any substance. The best that the BATFE could do is say that the manufacturer sold it as a complete rifle, and the dealer logged it as a rifle, so they have a case that it was FIRST a rifle.

Of course, we don't expect anyone to say they did.

And proving one way or the other would be practically impossible for either prosecution or defense.

As for the mag carrier, instead of a wrist brace a box magazine pouch installed on the buffer tube with a 20 rounder in it. It's not a shoulder stock, it's a spare mag carrier. It would be under the tube with the bottom of the mag toward the shoulder.

I haven't seen such a thing, but that's a mag carrier, not a stock.

 

[MasterSergeantA]

Sam,

I thought if you submitted a Form 1 to "make" a SBR from a pistol, that once completed as a "rifle" (albeit short-barreled) you could not "make" it back into a pistol again. I know that you can "make" the SBR from a rifle and then put it back into long barrel configuration and back and forth, but I thought it completely lost any connection to being a pistol once the Form 1 was approved.

 

[Sam1911]

Do you have any current decision that says so?

I understand why it could be viewed that way, but as you know, nothing about any of this hinges on how anyone could view it.

 

[MasterSergeantA]

I have no decision. I can send ATF a requerst for information. I was hoping someone here might know for certain. My 'understanding' was based on another post that may also have addressed the 922r aspects of "making" a firearm. Perhaps I got confused. (Happens a lot these days.)

 

[Sam1911]

Well, that's about what I've got to work with. A decision that says you don't "make" a rifle by taking something that is a firearm NOT a rifle and converting it.

And a decision that says if you make an NFA firearm (of that type) you can "unmake" it just by taking that naughty part off.

It is quite possible that this exact question has not been definitively answered.

 

[MasterSergeantA]

I understand. I read the opinion that stated a pistol could be converted to a rifle and back again. Logical. (Which made me think it was a prank at first.) And I know that if you get an approved Form 1 to "make" a SBR, you can remove the short barrel and "unmake" it. But when you do a Form 1 conversion from a "handgun" to a short-barreled rifle and have to put new 'manufacturer identification' on it, I can see the rule changing. I'll send them a letter and post it here when I get a reply. Thanks, Sam.

 

[Sam1911]

Au contraire, thank YOU! I'd love to hear when you get that letter back!

 

[Elkins45]

I understand. I read the opinion that stated a pistol could be converted to a rifle and back again. Logical. (Which made me think it was a prank at first.) And I know that if you get an approved Form 1 to "make" a SBR, you can remove the short barrel and "unmake" it. But when you do a Form 1 conversion from a "handgun" to a short-barreled rifle and have to put new 'manufacturer identification' on it, I can see the rule changing. I'll send them a letter and post it here when I get a reply. Thanks, Sam.

Be careful in asking a question if one of the possible answers is something you won't like. The reason steel wool and Chore Boy scrubbing pads are now considered non-replacable silencer parts is because somebody wrote a letter...

 

[nw_aggie]

So is there any way to determine how a stripped lower was originally registered? I've bought a few, and don't recall just how the form was filled out...similar to the poster above, it may have been checked as a rifle or may have as an other, I just don't know.

If I were to want to build a pistol, would I need to go get either another lower and have the form filled out as other, or obtain a pistol marked lower?

 

[Tirod]

In my specific circumstances, the lower was constructed into a rifle, pics posted online, with no intermediate step where it would be construed a pistol.

First a rifle, always a rifle.

Lowers ARE cheap enough, less than 10% of the total build budget, so it's really only an obstruction to those who are letting it be one. Barrels are commonly 3-4X that. And it you are building a pistol, there are a lot of optimizations that would be different than a carbine or rifle anyway. You could use all the same parts, but that doesn't mean you prefer it. A more vertical handgrip, almost no need for telescopic sights, a much more effective compensator, more ambidextrous controls, etc all come to mind. Being a pistol with much less shoulder stock leverage, an 80% poly lower becomes a higher possibility. It's NOT an entry carbine for CQB. Storage - legally loaded in the passenger compartment - can be enhanced with a LAW adapter. Goes to the thread on backpack carry.

There's only a few million recently deployed vets over the last ten years who picked up that habit.

 

[Sam1911]

So is there any way to determine how a stripped lower was originally registered?

Well, the word "registered" is misleading, as few firearms are actually registered in the US. If you mean, what did the dealer check on his form 4473? Sure, you could find out.

I've bought a few, and don't recall just how the form was filled out...similar to the poster above, it may have been checked as a rifle or may have as an other, I just don't know.

The thing is that shouldn't matter, in theory. It was whatever it was. What the dealer checked doesn't confer a different status upon it. It could be argued that it might be used as an indicator of something in a (never ever going to happen) investigation to prove that you've made a pistol out of a rifle, but in itself the form doesn't prove anything. Dealers make mistakes like that all the time, and that's what they are: mistakes. The form even tells them not to do that...

If I were to want to build a pistol, would I need to go get either another lower and have the form filled out as other, or obtain a pistol marked lower?

The common answer is that if you want to build it as a pistol, you shouldn't if you FIRST built it as a rifle.

Now, as I pointed out before, before you put the shoulder stock on it you've probably built an "other firearm" (over 26", but no shoulder stock) because few people put the stock on before the buffer tube ()... does that get you off the hook? Who knows?

You probably won't find any receivers anywhere to buy that are "marked" as a pistol, as AR receiver makers have no reason to do that.

And shucks...just because an AR-15 lower SAID "pistol" on it, doesn't mean you didn't first build it as a rifle ... so what's the value in this?

 

[nw_aggie]

Thanks.

Im pretty sure I've seen at least one lower stamped pistol on the side of it, why, I dunno,but that's what it said.