Single Action Defense

[Paul7]

My money will be on the one that makes his first shot count.



Yep! Where folks with hardly an interest in something are fully free to express an opinion. I've been obsessed with single actions for most of my life and have a scant three dozen. I'd love to know what somebody who doesn't handload and has one single action (back in December???) they're going to sell is going to tell you or me about them. Let alone what a skilled shooter is capable of with them.

Mr. Skilled Shooter, I guarantee you I can reload 15 rounds in an auto faster than you can reload 6 in a SA. Is the bad guy supposed to wait until you're done?

 

[Paul7]

this ^^, and probably my favorite comment ive read on here
ive always thought that you should train and get proficient with whatever youve got/or like. In any situation thats about all you can do as you dont know what a BG is bringing to the situation. Im not saying people have to use a SAA for defense anymore than im saying they need a Glock, being proficient hopefully gives you an advantage. just my opinion
Regards
Gene

The BG probably isn't bringing a SA to the situation. Being proficient would give you an advantage, all other things being equal.

My earlier quote that a person with a SA is at a great disadvantage in a gunfight was from the late Col. Jeff Cooper, a man who knew a thing or two more about gunfighting than your average internet commando/Cowboy Action fan.

 

[ivankerley]

The BG probably isn't bringing a SA to the situation. Being proficient would give you an advantage, all other things being equal.

My earlier quote that a person with a SA is at a great disadvantage in a gunfight was from the late Col. Jeff Cooper, a man who knew a thing or two more about gunfighting than your average internet commando/Cowboy Action fan.

perhaps, or he may be using a jammo-matic or not even know how his pistol works. this discussion seems to be going as well as the others ive read
name calling isnt necessary to get your point across.
Regards
Gene

 

[PRM]

My earlier quote that a person with a SA is at a great disadvantage in a gunfight was from the late Col. Jeff Cooper

He also didn't have much use for any handgun other than the SA 1911 which came with a 7 round standard magazine.

 

[dagger dog]

My money will be on the one that makes his first shot count.



Yep! Where folks with hardly an interest in something are fully free to express an opinion. I've been obsessed with single actions for most of my life and have a scant three dozen. I'd love to know what somebody who doesn't handload and has one single action (back in December???) they're going to sell is going to tell you or me about them. Let alone what a skilled shooter is capable of with them.

And I'll add ,pokes the biggest first hole !

I have no feelings of being under gunned, or out gunned with a .44 .45 caliber thumbuster, but really I just read all that stuff from some old geezer gunwriter named Skeeter Skelton, and an old coot named Elmer!

 

[savit260]

Mr. Skilled Shooter, I guarantee you I can reload 15 rounds in an auto faster than you can reload 6 in a SA. Is the bad guy supposed to wait until you're done?

Who cares who can reload the fastest? If I were in the military or a cop this might be a concern, but I'm neither cop nor commando. In a civilian self defense scenario, I'd place my money on who can get the first accurate , well placed shot off. I see the S/A as having no disadvantages in that regard.

 

[Paul7]

He also didn't have much use for any handgun other than the SA 1911 which came with a 7 round standard magazine.

Which is much faster to shoot and reload than a SA.

 

[Paul7]

Who cares who can reload the fastest? If I were in the military or a cop this might be a concern, but I'm neither cop nor commando. In a civilian self defense scenario, I'd place my money on who can get the first accurate , well placed shot off. I see the S/A as having no disadvantages in that regard.

In that area, yes, and I have some sympathy for that argument as supposedly the average SD situation is 3 shots, 3 seconds, 3 feet. Even in that case, an auto will get off 3 shots much faster than a SA.

 

[Paul7]

Who cares who can reload the fastest? If I were in the military or a cop this might be a concern, but I'm neither cop nor commando. In a civilian self defense scenario, I'd place my money on who can get the first accurate , well placed shot off. I see the S/A as having no disadvantages in that regard.

Don't we civilians potentially face the same bad guys as the cops? This thread IS about self defense. A good argument for why we need ARs, but that's another topic.

 

[Paul7]

And I'll add ,pokes the biggest first hole !

I have no feelings of being under gunned, or out gunned with a .44 .45 caliber thumbuster, but really I just read all that stuff from some old geezer gunwriter named Skeeter Skelton, and an old coot named Elmer!

I don't think when Elmer died in 1984 that many bad guys were carrying high-capacity autos.

 

[PRM]

Which is much faster to shoot and reload than a SA.

an auto will get off 3 shots much faster than a SA.

Fast, doesn't always get the job done.

Paul, you like what you like... Not everybody on the forum has the same position or will agree with you. If you have to have the latest, highest capacity handgun out there to feel effective; good for ya. Plan on upgrading regularly because something new is always coming out. The guns I own and carry I've been shooting for decades. I'm more than comfortable with them and see no advantage, or feel any pressing need to change them.

 

[Stophel]

Defense against whom, exactly? "In the city" (a place I assiduously avoid) your probable bad guy assailant may well have a 15 shot fantastic plastic pistol, but also probably will have one hand holding up his baggy sports shorts, while the other hand holds his "nine" sideways and he'll have no shooting (or any other) skills whatsoever. Be aware of your situation. Don't let them get close. A single action will kill one every bit as dead as any other gun. I'd carry two, though...

"In the country", well, the odds of meeting a felonious hombre in what's left of our safer areas are ten million to one. A rabid dog, or a coyote, or a bear or something, maybe. Once again, a single action will kill one every bit as dead as any other gun.

"Against the jack booted thugs" you're gonna be met with overwhelming force and it won't matter much what you're carrying. At least maybe you can take down one or two before you're sprayed with a hail of gunfire from six or seven machine guns.

 

[huntsman]

For those who do is it a dedicated gun for CC? shorter barrel or other specialties?

 

[dagger dog]

Yeah I know them old guys were easy to kill, just the muzzle blast from a hi cap 40 S&W pistol, would be enough to drop 'em in their tracks !

Let's see S&W 59, Browning Hi Power and there has to be others.

 

[PRM]

Huntsman, my Colt SAA 45 LC/45 ACP, and Colt Bisley 44 Special are both 5.5 barrel lengths. They are pretty large guns, but with the proper holster conceal good. I use an El Paso Saddlery "Crosshair." For this size gun, you will need a good belt, they are a little heavy.

I also have a Cimmaron Lightning .38 Special with a 3.5 inch barrel. It's about 20% smaller than the full size SAA/clone and carries about like a K frame S&W. The birds head grip give this little gun a lot of control.

The one gun that goes in my pocket regularly is an NAA Black Widow in .22 Magnum. Potent, and small enough that there is no reason to ever be unarmed unless where you are going is otherwise prohibited.

dagger dog - I do own and particularly like the Browning High Power. Not sure about the muzzle blast though...

 

[CraigC]

Which is much faster to shoot and reload than a SA.

Even in that case, an auto will get off 3 shots much faster than a SA.

You're really not qualified to make that statement.

Jeff Cooper, a man who knew a thing or two more about gunfighting than your average internet commando/Cowboy Action fan.

Bold words (and condescending) for someone who probably hasn't fired as many rounds through a single action in your life as some here have in a month.


Funny how every time this subject comes up, it's always the guys with the least (or non-existent) experience with SA's who are the loudest naysayers.

 

[Barry the Bear]

I wish I could say something but CraigC just did everything for me.

 

[savit260]

Don't we civilians potentially face the same bad guys as the cops? This thread IS about self defense. A good argument for why we need ARs, but that's another topic.

Same bad guys..maybe, but in the same way....Absolutely not!

The police many times are in offensive situations.


As a civilian, we aren't likely to get into protracted gun fights or pursuing "bad guys".

Certainly we aren't going to be on the offensive.

I'll tell you as a former race car driver that a full roll cage and a 5 point harness is vastly superior to a seat belt, but I doubt you'll rush out and have those installed in your daily driver. It's kind of over the top and a bit of a stretch for your average passenger vehicle. It's certainly better though. The question is... do you anticipate really needing that kind of restraint system in your drive to work or the supermarket??? Probably not. If you want to take it one more step... maybe you ought to wear a fire proof lined helmet , undies, socks and gloves for your drive to work too.. Ya never know right???



Maybe you grasp that comparison, maybe not. Different tools for different situations. I'm not a cop. I'm not part of Seal Team Six.

I'm a civilian that carries a revolver as that's what I think suits my likely needs.

You can carry a B.A.R. for all I care if you think that's what suits your needs.

 

[David E]

Personally, I will take the weapon I'm most proficient with 99.99% of the time. Proficiency trumps equipment.

Perhaps you should spend more time with it before passing judgement on those of us who have lived and breathed with them for 30yrs.

With all due respect, perhaps it's a good idea to become proficient with something made in the 21st century instead of excelling with 19th century defense tools.

Can they still do the job? Of course! I'd rather have a CraigC on my side with his SA than some hicap spray and pray guy. But,in the end, I'd prefer someone with CraigC's SA competence, but was using a hicap.

CraigC: My money is on the guy who hits first.

Given the stated premise of equal skill, they'd hit each other simultaneously.

 

[PRM]

CraigC: Id bet on the guy who hits first.

Given the premise of equal skill, they'd hit each other simultaneously.

Good point - so does it really matter what platform launched the projectile?

 

[CraigC]

With all due respect, perhaps it's a good idea to become proficient with something made in the 21st century instead of excelling with 19th century defense tools.

With all due respect, I'll shoot what I like and suggest you do the same. I shoot with guns I can actually use. Not just those I carry because I 'may' have to use it 'some' day. I spent enough time with 1911's that I am comfortable with them and carry a 3" because it's usually easier to conceal. I don't consider it an advantage over a 4¾" or shorter sixgun for any other reason than concealability. Everything else is too limited in application and most of it completely uninteresting.

I gladly take the chance that I'll never meet a thug who has spent as much time shooting as I have. Prolly fairly slim. Either way, he'll have his work cut out for him if his intent is to make me a victim.

 

[savit260]

Given the stated premise of equal skill, they'd hit each other simultaneously.

So there ya go. The more proficient one has the upper hand, regardless of platform.

Thanks for settling that for us all David.

 

[David E]

Good point - so does it really matter what platform launched the projectile?

Not for the first shot.

So there ya go. The more proficient one has the upper hand, regardless of platform.

Maybe. For a little while. The upper hand may last only one shot. (Which may be enough!) If you're using one hand (easily possible/probable) your SA follow-up shots are going to be slower than someone using a semi-auto. This could matter for multiple assailants, etc. I'm not as worried about reload speed as I am about follow-up shots. Then again, I'd likely carry a .44 magnum or .45 Colt SA, so actually needing a follow-up shot on the same target is moot.

I bought my first SA back in 1976 and have been shooting them ever since, so I consider myself to be at least "good" with one. But I won't choose one strictly for human defense on purpose. Yet, I don't hesitate to carry an SA afield, even if human defense is one of the possible uses.

Thanks for settling that for us all David.

You're very welcome!

.

 

[tubeshooter]

Wow, this turned into a urinating contest pretty quick.

Does this always happen with single action carry threads? Yeesh.

Not sure why a simple "no, I wouldn't carry a SA" as a response to the OP would not suffice, if a response was even provided. I thought the question was "do you?" rather than "why don't you?".

But then again, you can have something like "Is 5 shots enough?" turn into pages upon pages of what I guess was a lot of back and forth, so I guess I shouldn't be that surprised.



Anyway, seems like an awful lot of snark for no real reason with some of these responses... over what the next man carries... but maybe it makes for fun conversation on some level, I guess?

 

[R.W.Dale]

Mr. Skilled Shooter, I guarantee you I can reload 15 rounds in an auto faster than you can reload 6 in a SA. Is the bad guy supposed to wait until you're done?

Can we dispense with this FANTASY that is the reload in a CCW defensive situation.

I've posed this question before for someone to cite an instance a ccw holder needing to reload during a defensive shooting and ONLY ONE instance has ever been found. That particular individual was targeted on multiple occasions.

The fact of the matter is that getting in a gunfight is an EXCEEDINGLY rare event and among those needing a reload is infinitely more improbable.

The cold hard reality is that as civilian CCW holders we WILL either live or die with the ammunition already in our weapon. I'm also a firm believer that if you cannot make the first three shots count YOU ARE NOT going to make the consecutive ones do so.

I would also like to point out that what the police or military need a sidearm to do is completely different than what I need one to do