Single Action Defense

[PRM]

CraigC

One of the guns I have always regretted selling was a S&W New Model 3 in .44 Russian. My gun was a strong 98% and had two barrels serialized to the frame with mint bores. I had a 4 inch service barrel and 6.5 inch target barrel. I discovered that HKS Model 29 speed loaders worked perfect in the old .44. Loading was extremely fast.

I picked the gun up about a decade before the SASS shooting took off. Handloaded my cartridges with GOEX FFFG and had a blast. One day a guy offered me over three times what I had in the gun - boy, have I regretted that sale over the years.:banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[CraigC]

Answer my questions, please.

The sad part is that you are so against even considering that modern technology might be more capable...

You must think you're talking to a country bumpkin who thinks that shoes and air conditioning are just a fad.

I shot Glocks for 15yrs, keep an XD .45 in my truck and probably shoot at least a few thousand rounds a year through several 1911's. Like I've already said, I've been there and done that with a lot of different guns. Like I also said, to borrow a quote, just because I don't have much use for one, doesn't mean I don't know how to use one.

One of the guns I have always regretted selling was a S&W New Model 3 in .44 Russian. My gun was a strong 98% and had two barrels serialized to the frame with mint bores.

Nice! I can only imagine how much you regret selling that sweet piece of history. I've been lusting after the #3 Russian replicas but there ain't nothin' like the real thing.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Answer my questions, please.

I did long ago. Read the thread. Also, my posting habits in any particular sub forum are entirely irrelevant. Nor do my posting habits, or even my particular interest in any type of firearm, speak towards the effectiveness of a single action revolver as a self defense firearm in comparison to a modern defensive firearm.

As I said before, the only thing that actually matters here is the ability of a particular firearm to put as much metal as fast as possible into an opponent. Unless you can provide some facts that demonstrate a SA revolvers ability to do that at the same level as a modern defensive pistol you aren't actually addressing the matter but just trying to confuse, distract and impeach my character... which FYI isn't the topic.

I'm not real sure what the "bull droppings" with regards to making the first hit is all about.

Your assertion that the person who scores the first hit is going to win the gun fight is bull droppings. Plain and simple. The person who makes his opponent unable to fight back first wins the fight.

I've dealt with plenty of GSWs over the years, and some of them even managed to win a gun fight without even having a gun.

 

[jimbo555]

Ok Craig you convinced me,I'm going to spend some serious time with my s.a. Cimarron!

 

[CraigC]

I did long ago. Read the thread. Also, my posting habits in any particular sub forum are entirely irrelevant. Nor do my posting habits, or even my particular interest in any type of firearm, speak towards the effectiveness of a single action revolver as a self defense firearm in comparison to a modern defensive firearm.

No you didn't, you side-stepped it. Your posting habits are directly correlated to your level of interest and in what. IMHO, the guy who hardly ever posts in the revolver forum probably has very little interest in them and is probably not qualified to judge the capabilities of others.....with revolvers. You have TWO posts in the revolver forum, outside this thread. If you spend 99% of your shooting time with semi-autos then I don't consider your opinion valid at all......on this subject. If you have spent equal time with both, then I might consider your opinion valid. You said that you had carried a Blackhawk on the farm. That's all well and good but unless you spent many hours deliberately honing your skill in running it fast, you're no different from the average, very casual single action shooter.

As I said before, the only thing that actually matters here is the ability of a particular firearm to put as much metal as fast as possible into an opponent. Unless you can provide some facts that demonstrate a SA revolvers ability to do that at the same level as a modern defensive pistol you aren't actually addressing the matter but just trying to confuse, distract and impeach my character... which FYI isn't the topic.

Again, you're focused on the hardware. You keep talking about equal skill and I'm talking about unequal skill. MY SKILL! The only FACT that is important is that CraigC (so that you KNOW I'm talking about MY capabilities) is proficient enough with single action revolvers that he does not believe he has a disadvantage when carrying them. If I only had one or two of them and only shot them casually and infrequently, then yes, I would agree. PROFICIENCY is the difference. Not shooting IDPA or ISSC or any other semi-auto dominated gun game with 30rd courses of fire but in a real, actual, average fight for your life. Where your wits, situational awareness and a cool head are vastly more important than reload speed and rate of fire. Any idiot who picks up a semi-auto can shoot one fast.

 

[savit260]

Let me rephrase that, what if it is 3AM and you hear your back door being broken down?

Two word answer..

twelve gauge.

 

[CraigC]

Two word answer..

twelve gauge.

Yep!

Am I going to wave the white flag if all I have is a trusty sixgun and a measly five shots? Not on your life.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

No you didn't, you side-stepped it. Your posting habits are directly correlated to your level of interest and in what. IMHO, the guy who hardly ever posts in the revolver forum probably has very little interest in them and is probably not qualified to judge the capabilities of others.....with revolvers

Holy hell, are you kidding? Seriously? Do you not realize how incredibly stupid that statement is? Take a moment to think about all the logic flaws in that chain of thought you just wandered through.

The only FACT that is important is that CraigC (so that you KNOW I'm talking about MY capabilities) is proficient enough with single action revolvers that he does not believe he has a disadvantage when carrying them.

You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts. All other things being equal, faced against another firearm that can put more lead into you in the same, or a shorter amount of time, you are at a disadvantage.

That's a fact.

Where your wits, situational awareness and a cool head are vastly more important than reload speed and rate of fire.

.

So what if you are facing a person with the same wits, situational awareness and cool head, but carrying a modern defensive pistol?

You don't think he has an advantage over you?

...oh wait..Hang on. Are you stating that you have an advantage in a gunfight, despite using sub-optimal equipment because you know you will be the better gun fighter in the confrontation?

Any idiot who picks up a semi-auto can shoot one fast.

Seriously? Going back to this well again?

 

[45 Dragoon]

Thanks CraigC.

By the way, I've never heard a semi shot twice and sound like one shot. I've heard more than a few SA's do so. Hmmmmmmmm . . . . .




45 Dragoon

 

[savit260]

You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts. All other things being equal, faced against another firearm that can put more lead into you in the same, or a shorter amount of time, you are at a disadvantage.

Maybe on paper or in theory, but anyone who's paid attention to what's gone on in the Middle East Wars in recent years, must know that guys with not terribly sophisticated, sometimes very basic or even improvised weapons have played holy hell with our vastly superior trained and armed troops.

All things being equal... having the most up to date weaponry doesn't always guarantee coming out the victor every time.

Regardless of hardware , IMO proficiency (and luck) trump all.

 

[CraigC]

All other things being equal, faced against another firearm that can put more lead into you in the same, or a shorter amount of time, you are at a disadvantage.

Things are NEVER equal, that's kinda the point. It's up to YOU to win the fight, not your polymer automatic.

So what if you are facing a person with the same wits, situational awareness and cool head, but carrying a modern defensive pistol?

Is there half a dozen of them???

 

[Kleanbore]

Guys and gals, let's not get personal.

A few thoughts on the subject:

• The skill and mindet of the defender are more important than the toolset.
• However, what one "feels" about his or her preparedness is unlikely to be determinative.
• "Who hits first" sounds neat, but it has little real meaning.
• Successfully defending against a sudden attack by more than one violent criminal actor might well require more than five or six shots.
• Effecting a reload during a defensive encounter is probably most unlikely.
• Very rapid, controlled shooting may well be required.
• One does not want to end up with an empty gun after a defensive encounter.

I happen to like single action revolvers. I have successfully used one, without firing a shot, to defend myself.

I would very probably choose one over any tiny, long-trigger-pull, six shot pocket auto. But William Barclay Masterson, probably because of financial compensation, once promoted the superiority of a ten shot, decently sized .32 auto over the six-guns of his past.

I do not think his reasons can be completely discounted.

 

[David E]

Because you guys are universally obsessed with capacity and reload speed. You seemingly place little importance on proficiency.

You are reading words not written. Never have I advocated spray and pray. I ALWAYS talk about FAST HITS, not fast shots.

You think a "proficient" SA shooter can shoot 5 rds one handed as fast or faster than a guy with a semi-auto. I'd like to see that display of proficiency, myself. It'd be dang impressive!

We're talking about a real life gunfight that statistically speaking, is usually over in less than 3rds.

The oft-cited "3rds or less" stat is wrong. It includes suicides, warning shots, animal put downs and AD's.


.

 

[David E]

Thanks CraigC.

By the way, I've never heard a semi shot twice and sound like one shot. I've heard more than a few SA's do so. Hmmmmmmmm . . . . .




45 Dragoon

But never fired one handed, drawn from concealment.

.

 

[35 Whelen]

Going to town I take the glock 45.

McCloud made it work, but for routine carry in the city, it's a poor choice.

Not for self defense in the city...

Do you guys shoot more poorly when you go to town?

Nothing wrong with a single action for self defense up until you need a quick reload.

What if the BG adversary has also taken advantage of the latest and greatest technology advances? He will reload a 15 round magazine a lot faster than you will reload a SA with 6 rounds (especially the cap and ball revolver shown in post #16). Not to mention he'll be pulling the trigger much faster.

For two people of equal gunfighting ability, my money will be on the one with the higher capacity, easier to reload weapon.

Mr. Skilled Shooter, I guarantee you I can reload 15 rounds in an auto faster than you can reload 6 in a SA.

What's all the obsession with reloading unless you plan on missing alot? I personally question folks who place so much emphasis on 1) High capacity magazines and 2) Quick reloads.

I think I understand the thought process and that is so many people think they're going to go to town and be confronted by multiple bad guys in a dead-end ally. Then of course, the bad guys will stand by politely and wait for you to take out their buddies before the next attacks. You know, like the old Bruce Lee movies.

What I carry depends on what vehicle I happen to be in when I go to town, and the time of year; either a Star 9mm or a 3" 38 Sp. If we ever get open carry down here, my 4 3/4" 44 Special will see much more use as a SD weapon.

35W

 

[PRM]

WOW... disappearing post(s). I thought I was being civil. Guess its time for me to exit the thread.

Kudos... CraigC.

 

[CraigC]

You are reading words not written. Never have I advocated spray and pray. I ALWAYS talk about FAST HITS, not fast shots.

Your argument is for higher capacity, quicker reloads. You are either planning on engaging multiple assailants, shooting the same person a lot more than 2-3 times or missing a bunch.

The oft-cited "3rds or less" stat is wrong. It includes suicides, warning shots, animal put downs and AD's.

Read my other responses.

I do not think his reasons can be completely discounted.

We can also quote Texas Rangers and Border Patrol agents working with single actions in the 1960's. One of whom was quoted as saying, "if I can't get it done in five shots, I'd be guilty of sloppy peace-officering".

You think a "proficient" SA shooter can shoot 5 rds one handed as fast or faster than a guy with a semi-auto.

I think a proficient single action shooter can make it happen fast enough that it doesn't matter in a gunfight with a criminal (not a professional competition shooter).

"Who hits first" sounds neat, but it has little real meaning.

So being the first to make the first shot count has no value? You're telling me that putting a bullet hole in your opponent before he puts one in you has no effect on the outcome? Seriously???

 

[Sam Cade]

Gentle sirs, have you considered a HOWDAH PISTOL of the classic pattern?

You need not depend on the temperamental nitrocellulose fueled engine of a self-loader nor the clockwork tomfoolerly of the revolving cylinder.

*People are far to obsessed with capacity these days, anyhow...

Choose life, choose reliability, Choose HOWDAH!!!







*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

 

[JShirley]

I really enjoy shooting a SA revolver.

Doesn't change that a single adversary is a silly "best case" fantasy. Who plans for the best worst case? That's just silly.

John

 

[Sam Cade]

Ok, folks, I had to do a bit of pruning.

I'm going to echo Kleanbore's admonition to not let this get personal.

 

[ferretray]

I care none whatsoever what the next fellow chooses for SD.
"Speed is fine, but accuracy is final". That man knew something about gunfighting.

 

[David E]

Your argument is for higher capacity, quicker reloads. You are either planning on engaging multiple assailants, shooting the same person a lot more than 2-3 times or missing a bunch.

Do tell. Please cite the post(s) where I made these arguments.

I think a proficient single action shooter can make it happen fast enough that it doesn't matter in a gunfight with a criminal

Soooo, you're backing off your assertion that you can fire a single action revolver, one handed, as fast or faster than someone using a semi-auto? Good call.

(not a professional competition shooter).

Didn't you tell another Poster that there wasn't any gun game you could be beaten at? Gun games aside, defending your life is a very competitive activity.

 

[Old Fuff]

On this one I’m going to go with David E.

Yes, on occasion I’ve carried a thumb-buster as a defensive weapon, but I knew darned well that it wasn’t the best optimal choice. No one can pre-plan what a serious confrontation will be like, or how it will go down. If the circumstances do happen to require more then 5 or 6 shots, an SA user is going to be in a predicament unless rapid reloading isn’t an issue – and it likely would be.

Ed McGivern did some fantastic speed shooting with his Colt’s, but it took two hands. Then he changed to Smith & Wesson double-action hand ejectors and set even faster records while using one hand – unless he was shooting two revolvers. In either case he hit what he was shooting at. Elmer Keith did much the same.

During the latter third of the 19th century many western gunfighters used the 1873 Model Colt, but mainly because they didn’t have a better option. Today we do.

 

[CraigC]

Better for whom???

 

[Dr.Rob]

That is what I usually have around camp, a single action 44 magnum.

At one time I didn't have a lot of choices for HD, and I loaded it with soft lead 'cowboy' loads for nightstand duty. The 300gr soft points I favor for bears and hunting seemed like a liability in defensive use.

Sam: she better cock the hammers on that Howdah if she plans on shooting it.