Sleeved barrels?

M

Mr. Tettnanger

Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2004
Messages
232
I know that S&W has been using sleeved barrels for some time. I've read a lot of hate about them and some that actually think it is a good thing.

I was on Ruger's site recently and it looks like they have gone to the sleeve and shroud barrels on some models as well!

What is the point of this type of manufacturing? Is it strictly cost savings? Any advantage?
 
I would imagine (i.e. I don't have proof) the specific sleeving process is significant.

The shrouded barrels on some Charter arms revolvers are made from aluminum as both a weight and cost saving measure. There doesn't appear to be a solid indexing point for the shroud, so it's not unheard of (I owned one briefly) to run across examples of these that left the factory with the front sight improperly clocked. I think they are installed with adhesive and I don't believe their liner serves to tension the barrel, but I'm not positive about this.

1708963605495.png

www.gunpartscorp.com

Barrel Shroud, Full, Black Aluminum, .44 Spec, 1.89", Used Factory BULLDOG CHARTER ARMS

Barrel Shroud, Full, Black Aluminum, .44 Spec, 1.89", Used Factory
www.gunpartscorp.com www.gunpartscorp.com

The Dan Wesson system used a steel barrel shroud that indexed on a roll pin at the front of the frame, and the barrel liner was threaded at both ends. This put the barrel into tension, which was touted as an aid to accuracy. Someone else can try to explain the how, but FWIW, I had two M15s at one time and they both shot wonderfully tight groups back when my eyes still worked properly.

Another 'gun' that I currently own is an Erma single-shot .22 LR conversion for a 7.92x57 Mauser K98k. It slips into the barrel from the breech and is held (and tensioned) by a threaded nut at the muzzle. The thing looks like nothing special but it really shoots very accurately!

www.youtube.com

Erma Modell 3 K98k 22 Rimfire Conversion Unit

This is an expansion and re-edit of my earlier video, with audio and shooting appended. (text continues below)Granted, most of the audio is the sound of noi...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
 
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I've owned several Dan Wesson's over the years that of course had sleeved barrels. One Smith and Wesson Model 19-9 that had one, and now a Taurus 327 that APPEARS to have one, but I'm not sure if it does or not.

I never saw any reason to think they didn't work as well as any other revolver I've ever owned. Or look any worse. Different yes. Worse? Not really.
 
There are several advantages to sleeved barrels....... from the manufacturer's point of view.
First, they're cheaper to make. The outer shroud can be made by MIM molding, the inner a standard barrel blank turned to size.
Second, if at any point in making a standard shrouded type barrel there's a defect, the entire barrel and the time spent on it is wasted. That's expensive.
With two-piece barrels an error on the shroud allows just tossing it back in the pot an re-melting it for another try.
A botched barrel insert is faster and cheaper to make to start with, so you loose much less time and money with e two-piece barrel.

A two-piece barrel is faster and cheaper to fit to a frame.
With a standard barrel the barrel has to be final machined to allow torquing it with the front sight at 12:00 o'clock top-dead-center.
Often if time isn't taken to insure a correct fit, the front sight can be off center.
With a two-piece barrel the shroud is indexed by a lug on the frame that interlocks with the shroud, so the front sight will always be centered.
The inner actual barrel is simply screwed in to proper torque inside the shroud.

There are problems with two-piece barrels.
Some of the early S&W's were improperly torqued and some barrels blew off the frame after cracking at the frame shoulder.
A batch of S&W's were bought by a southern prison system and most of those revolvers lost the barrel during firing.
The two-piece barrels are installed by putting a stud with reverse rifling in the barrel and the stud interlocks with the rifling to allow torquing the assembly in place.
This can damage the rifling, and since some makers use a slightly modified type of rifling, there's a chance of accuracy issues.
This also can cause problems with aftermarket gunsmithing since the barrel wrenches are hard to come by and a local gunsmith often can't do barrel work at all.
 
Mr. Tettnanger said:
I know that S&W has been using sleeved barrels for some time. I've read a lot of hate about them and some that actually think it is a good thing.

I was on Ruger's site recently and it looks like they have gone to the sleeve and shroud barrels on some models as well!

What is the point of this type of manufacturing? Is it strictly cost savings? Any advantage?
Click to expand...
Is my understanding, it's much easier to get both the barrel correctly aligned (not clocked off top dead center), and correct cylinder gap. With a sleeved barrel these are separate.
 
In my opinion we need to distinguish between barrel liner with a simple shroud that covers it and barrel put in traction through the shroud via a threaded bushing that screws onto the end of the barrel. The first type of barrel has no technical particularity and is actually a way to produce a barrel that is simpler to machine and therefore cheaper, in addition to the fact that, as the front sight is not mounted on the barrel but on the shroud, you won't have to worry of the barrel alignment. In the second case, however, we will have a barrel placed in traction which usually guarantees superior precision. In Dan Wesson revolvers, for example, the system even allows you to adjust the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone, as well as having the barrel operate by traction, once the bushing has been tightened tightly.
I think, for example, that also the S&W 327 TRR8 has a barrel put in traction by a threaded bushing but I think that the tool to operate it is restricted to the factory or S&W licensed gunsmiths.
 
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Mr. Tettnanger said:
I know that S&W has been using sleeved barrels for some time. I've read a lot of hate about them and some that actually think it is a good thing.
Click to expand...
I'm not a fan of the sleeved bbl. nor of the IL that S&W inflicted on us....BUT....the pair of M-69 .44 Magnums (both sleeved and IL'd) that my son and I often carry while working on the farms here, are some of the most accurate Smiths we've ever shot. And friends, accuracy with good ergonomics in any handgun trump nearly all other considerations for me as a shooter.

In our use, LSWC's & Jacketed types, all handloads, do very well indeed with both guns & leading is not an issue. Both shoot to the sights with minimal lateral and vertical rear sight adjustment...another plus ... and truth be told, I no longer notice the bloomin' IL nor the sleeved bbl...I just enjoy the precision shooting both guns afford us.

Best regards, Rod
 
Rodfac said:
I'm not a fan of the sleeved bbl. nor of the IL that S&W inflicted on us....BUT....the pair of M-69 .44 Magnums (both sleeved and IL'd) that my son and I often carry while working on the farms here, are some of the most accurate Smiths we've ever shot. And friends, accuracy with good ergonomics in any handgun trump nearly all other considerations for me as a shooter.

In our use, LSWC's & Jacketed types, all handloads, do very well indeed with both guns & leading is not an issue. Both shoot to the sights with minimal lateral and vertical rear sight adjustment...another plus ... and truth be told, I no longer notice the bloomin' IL nor the sleeved bbl...I just enjoy the precision shooting both guns afford us.

Best regards, Rod
Click to expand...
I was just going to say my 4.2” Model 69 is a great shooter, too. :thumbup:

Stay safe.
 
lB7l428.jpg


My 2.75" M69 Combat magnum has the 2-piece barrel. The M66 has it, too. They both were re-released in 2016, so they've been around for about 8 years now without issues I've ever heard of. I haven't heard any issues or complaints when it comes to Dan Wesson, Ruger, or Taurus.

@Mr. Tettnanger What I've noticed is that some people like to make mountains and of ant hills and just like to complain when it comes to S&W revolvers. Other manufacturers can use particular techniques and make changes, but anything S&W does that deviates from their old pre-locks is like the world has come to an end for some folks. Another example is Ruger, Taurus, and other revolver manufacturers using MIM parts, and it's perfectly fine. Almost everyone owns polymer strike-fired handguns, 1911s, etc, with MIM components, and that's perfectly fine. Even still, S&W revolvers often till this day gets bashed for it. I can't recall off the top of my head if I ever heard someone bash the SP101, GP100, etc, for their use of it.

It is what it is. I'd just ignore the negativity. There seem to be a lot of pluses and not many minus (except maybe mostly in theory only) with 2-piece barrels. I'd have zero qualms with or without just as long as the revolver is reliable, durable, and shoots straight. YMMV....
 
EDIT:
This post has been edited by a Staff Member for me. Thank you Mai H.
New dialogue in Blue

I have mixed feelings on 2 piece barrels. I currently only have 1 revolver with a sleeved barrel. An S&W 327 Night Guard. It’s my favorite handgun.

This information below on my 60 Pro is inaccurate. The model 60 Pro had a one piece barrel. Please see post #43
I had a S&W model 60 Pro. A J frame 5-shot .357 Magnum. I really liked that gun. When I first bought it the gun was accurate as all get out with 158 grain .357 Magnum loads (quite invigorating to fire) and with many .38 Spl SD loads.
Then one day the accuracy changed. All of a sudden it was shooting 3” to the right at 10 yards. I shifted the rear sight then it happened again. I maxed the rear sight windage adjustment out and as I was rested the barrel of the gun on the edge of the bench I saw the problem. The barrel shroud had turned moving the front sight to the left!
I was pretty upset at this new discovery. I called S&W and sent the gun in.
Long story short it went to S&W 4 times for the same thing. The last time it went I received it back from the “Performance Center” with a note and a fake target that definitely was not shot with my gun stating that the gun is repaired and shoots within specs and not to send the gun back in again as they will no longer honor the warranty on it.
A .38 bullet would not poke through the holes in the “test target” they sent back. That target was probably shot with a .32. :mad:
I tested the gun out and sold it with full disclosure on the issues I had with it.

Will I ever buy another Smith & Wesson with a two piece barrel? Probably not. Maybe

Will I ever buy a Performance Center gun from them? No!

Note: I was told that any PC gun returned to S&W is repaired by the PC tech that built it. I am guessing the guy in the Performance Center that received my gun had his standing there impacted by my gun returning on 4 different occasions, hence the snotty note never to send it back.

I will also say that I had my heart set on and even set money aside for a 327 TRR8 until I found out it had a sleeved barrel.
I currently have a 50% failure rate with S&W sleeved barrels. I am not willing to make it a 66% percent failure rate.

I did buy another new S&W revolver after that. A 25-15 and it’s a fantastic shooter and totally reliable. I have zero complaints on that revolver.

A special thank you to @Styx for prompting me to look into this.
 
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Pat Riot said:
I have mixed feelings on 2 piece barrels. I currently only have 1 revolver with a sleeved barrel. An S&W 327 Night Guard. It’s my favorite handgun.

I had a S&W model 60 Pro. A J frame 5-shot .357 Magnum. I really liked that gun. When I first bought it the gun was accurate as all get out with 158 grain .357 Magnum loads (quite invigorating to fire) and with many .38 Spl SD loads.
Then one day the accuracy changed. All of a sudden it was shooting 3” to the right at 10 yards. I shifted the rear sight then it happened again. I maxed the rear sight windage adjustment out and as I was rested the barrel of the gun on the edge of the bench I saw the problem. The barrel shroud had turned moving the front sight to the left!
I was pretty upset at this new discovery. I called S&W and sent the gun in.
Long story short it went to S&W 4 times for the same thing. The last time it went I received it back from the “Performance Center” with a note and a fake target that definitely was not shot with my gun stating that the gun is repaired and shoots within specs and not to send the gun back in again as they will no longer honor the warranty on it.
A .38 bullet would not poke through the holes in the “test target” they sent back. That target was probably shot with a .32. :mad:
I tested the gun out and sold it with full disclosure on the issues I had with it.

Will I ever buy another Smith & Wesson with a two piece barrel? Probably not.
Will I ever buy a Performance Center gun from them? No!

Note: I was told that any PC gun returned to S&W is repaired by the PC tech that built it. I am guessing the guy in the Performance Center that received my gun had his standing there impacted by my gun returning on 4 different occasions, hence the snotty note never to send it back.

I will also say that I had my heart set on and even set money aside for a 327 TRR8 until I found out it had a sleeved barrel.
I currently have a 50% failure rate with S&W sleeved barrels. I am not willing to make it a 66% percent failure rate.

I did buy another new S&W revolver after that. A 25-15 and it’s a fantastic shooter and totally reliable. I have zero complaints on that revolver.
Click to expand...
Admin note: See edited post #12 above.

When did the S&W model 60 Pro ever have a 2 peice barrel? I could have had swore they did not. I just did a 15 minute Google search, and I couldn't find anything to confirm. The photos I'm found online of the 60 Pro's barrel appears to be one peice.
 
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Styx said:
When did the S&W model 60 Pro ever have a 2 peice barrel? I could have had swore they did not. I just did a 15 minute Google search, and I couldn't find anything to confirm. The photos I'm found online of the 60 Pro's barrel appears to be one peice.
Click to expand...
It does appear as one piece but it is not. The area at the muzzle that shows a recessed muzzle crown is the shroud holding the barrel sleeve secure.
 
Styx said:
It's a one piece barrel that's simply recessed.
Click to expand...
I see what you mean. It appears one piece.
The first time the gun failed I could not release the cylinder. It was locked up. I sent it in and it came back from S&W with docs that only said “Repaired” on the Work Order. I was okay with that.
The 2nd time, when I noticed the barrel turned, I sent it in. It was returned with a WO that said “Repaired”. I called S&W and the lady I talked to said “The barrel shroud was tightened” I asked her if it was a 2 piece barrel and she said “Yes”.
It did not look like a two piece to me.
The 3rd time, same thing. The WO said “Repaired” I called again and was told “the barrel shroud was tightened”. I asked to speak to the tech for clarification and I was denied.
The last time I sent it in I didn’t call. I got rid of the gun.
I have an appointment this morning but when I get back I am going to see if I can find my documents and my notes. I know o wrote down my interactions with them.
 
Pat Riot said:
I see what you mean. It appears one piece.
The first time the gun failed I could not release the cylinder. It was locked up. I sent it in and it came back from S&W with docs that only said “Repaired” on the Work Order. I was okay with that.
The 2nd time, when I noticed the barrel turned, I sent it in. It was returned with a WO that said “Repaired”. I called S&W and the lady I talked to said “The barrel shroud was tightened” I asked her if it was a 2 piece barrel and she said “Yes”.
It did not look like a two piece to me.
The 3rd time, same thing. The WO said “Repaired” I called again and was told “the barrel shroud was tightened”. I asked to speak to the tech for clarification and I was denied.
The last time I sent it in I didn’t call. I got rid of the gun.
I have an appointment this morning but when I get back I am going to see if I can find my documents and my notes. I know o wrote down my interactions with them.
Click to expand...
There QC and CS isn't the best. Think they're just worried about pushing out as much product to increase revenue and profit. Sounds like there was an issue with the barrel, frame, or lazy employee. I'm glad I haven't had to deal with them yet.
 
Styx said:
There QC and CS isn't the best. Think they're just worried about pushing out as much product to increase revenue and profit. Sounds like there was an issue with the barrel, frame, or lazy employee. I'm glad I haven't had to deal with them yet.
Click to expand...
I have to say that up until that experience and after I dumped that gun I have always had good service from S&W.

Also, if I am mistaken about that gun having a two piece barrel I will recant my post above, but I know that twice I was told it had a barrel shroud. I wasn’t told that by the jack*** in the Performance Center though.
 
@Styx I found my notebook, but not the file I had the S&W papers in. It’s packed away somewhere from our move from CA to WV (near home).
I found my notes from the second time I sent it back. I had forgotten that I sent it in and S&W sent it back without doing a thing about the canted barrel. In my notes I wrote “barrel” not “shroud” so that’s all I’ve got unless I can find my folder. And to be honest, I have no desire to look for it. It’s probably in a box in the basement.

I am going to the source. I just sent S&W an email to their Customer Service and simply asked:
“Is the barrel on your model 60 Pro series a solid one piece barrel or a two piece barrel assembly with a barrel and shroud?”

Hopefully I will get an answer to clarify this once and for all.
For over 3 years I have been of the impression that the 60 Pro had 2 piece barrel from conversations I had with S&W CS.
 
How they did the Dan Wesson's and how they're doing the newer S&W's is two completely different things, with completely different goals.

It's purely a cost savings measure. It's easier (read: cheaper) to produce cast a shroud to go over a threaded, round inner barrel liner than it is to forge a one-piece DA revolver barrel. Far as that goes, I really don't care. My issue with it is as someone who's had numerous custom guns built, it makes them non-serviceable. The barrel cannot be cut and in many cases, even removed. To me, that makes these guns disposable. For me it is antithetical to the role of revolvers in my life.
 
CraigC said:
How they did the Dan Wesson's and how they're doing the newer S&W's is two completely different things, with completely different goals.

It's purely a cost savings measure. It's easier (read: cheaper) to produce cast a shroud to go over a threaded, round inner barrel liner than it is to forge a one-piece DA revolver barrel. Far as that goes, I really don't care. My issue with it is as someone who's had numerous custom guns built, it makes them non-serviceable. The barrel cannot be cut and in many cases, even removed. To me, that makes these guns disposable. For me it is antithetical to the role of revolvers in my life.
Click to expand...
It saves on cost, makes manufacturing easier and faster, and solves common issues. Why is this a negative or bad thing if it works? I'm not referring to you, but I hear a lot of people bring the fact that it saves the manufacturer money and time and makes manufacturing easier as a bad thing or something negative.

Probably less than 1% of revolver owners are going to cut their barrels instead of simply buying the revolver with the size barrel they wanted in the first place just like they would with semiautos. I only 1911s, CZs, Berettas, Glocks, etc that have a barrel and slide combo. I can't cut the barrel on those either because it would not work with the slide.... If you truly wanted to spend the coin, a custom shop could simply install a one peice barrel on the frame.

What S&W inner barrel can not be removed with the right tools? Not saying you're wrong, but I haven't never heard anyone else claim that the inner barrels on any of S&W 2-piece designs are permanently attached until now.
 
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Styx said:
It saves on cost, makes manufacturing easier and faster, and solves common issues. Why is this a negative or bad thing if it works?

Probably less than 1% of revolver owners are going to cut their barrels instead of simply buying the revolver with the size barrel they wanted in the first place just like they would with semiautos. I only 1911s, CZs, Berettas, Glocks, etc that have a barrel and slide combo. I can't cut the barrel on those either because it would not work with the slide.... If you truly wanted to spend the coin, a custom shop could simply install a one peice barrel on the frame. S&W inner barrel can not be removed with the right tools?
Click to expand...
I think I answered those questions.

We're not talking about semi-autos, are we?

If every configuration and variation were available from manufacturers, custom gunsmiths wouldn't exist at all, would they?

Hmmm, I guess you have no idea what it takes to produce a custom one-piece DA barrel. It's a hell of a lot more than a $150 chop job.

Buy them disposable S&W's if you like, you're not gonna talk me into it.
 
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