Snobbery....

[Andrew Wyatt]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heck,there may even be some 870 owners out there that think that Mossie owners are inbred cheapskates who never wash below their collar line.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



But Dave, that isn't snobbery....Thats true!

i'm a mossberg owner because the 870 controls are inefficient places for a left handed person such as myself, it comes pre drilled for GR sights (on the reciever, the barrel needs an extra hole drilled and tapped in it) and the extended magazine tube model has no reliability problems because there is no seam.

if you want to continue using your ancient and outdated 870, go right ahead.

 

[genie]

huh, this got me curious. my only shotgun is a benelli nova and since i've started shooting trap last summer, i've always used the long 28" barrel. now i'm all curious to try trap with the short 18.5" barrel. i'm guessing i'll have to jump on the clays pretty quick but with the open cylinder the spread should be nice and wide that should be fun!

luckily the range i goto doesn't have barrel length restrictions.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Ysr.....

TB, shorthand for an 870 Trap, B grade. There are also C, D and F grades, varying in ornamentation and quality of wood.

BDU, Battle Dress Uniform, the military and LE garb for "Serious" work. You see them on the news constantly lately in Desert Camo.

SC,Sporting Clays.You should know THAT one(G)...

SBT, Single Barrel Trap. A dedicated type of trap gun good for little else.

To all, the only stupid questions are those that do not get asked. Ask away, I don't mind. And, if they make fun, the sin is theirs and not thine.

Genie, whatever floats your boat. But, choke and load determine pattern much more than barrel length.

Andrew,whatever works for you. I handle an 870 fine southpaw side, but YMMV. More important than brand is training, expertise and mindset.

'Crawler, with that bayonet it doesn't matter if the gun rack is crowded. Just stick it in the ground.

 

[Dizos]

It was refreshing to read your post Dave. Thank you. People are way too quick to hate and fear others. If you treat others with respect chances are they will return it. We all walk away from such encounters changed for the better.

-- Dizos

 

[ysr_racer]

Dave, cool, thanks.

So I'm a SC-er that wears BDU shorts and shoots a BOU.



BOU = Browning Over & Under

 

[Detritus]

the only stupid questions are those that do not get asked

ok possibly showing MY amount/lack of knowlege but what's the heck is an "EBS" as referenced in your post about barrel length restrictions???

 

[Mike Irwin]

"It's too bad a good, honest, from the heart post by Dave spirals into the usual diatribe about clay shooters particularly those who, for better or worse, decide to buy an expensive gun."

I don't give a rat's reticulated rump how much someone's shotgun cost, PJR.

If it cost a lot, and they're a nice person, GREAT.

If it cost a lot, and they're a jerk, NOT great.

If they're shooting a stinking HR Topper and they're a jerk, NOT great.

Being a jerk isn't the preserve of the guy who owns a high-end gun.

Unfortunately, though, in all of the gun sports I play at, I have met FAR more jerkwads holding shotguns than I have holding rifles or handguns.

And seeing that I've participated in a LOT more handgun and rifle sports than I have shotgun sports, that's not a good percentage.

When I go to the range, I want to interact with the people I came to shoot with. I don't want someone breathing down my neck about how my shotgun isn't appropriate, or I'm not wearing the right clothes, or how I'm making everyone else look bad by shooting in the high teens/low 20s wiht a *GASP* police-style shotgun.

Cut me a ing break.

Oh, and for the record?

One of the nicest guys I EVER met on a sporting clays range is worth probably 20 times what every one of us posting to this thread makes -- a bona fide billionair.

Oh that simple millionairs were so decent.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Genie,

I guarantee you, it's a COMPLETELY different game with a short barreled gun!

 

[Dave McCracken]

Detritus,EBS is Evil Black Shotgun.The smoothbore version of those Evil Assault Weapons the Media and some pols rant about. There are also Evil Black Rifles.

Maybe we oughta float a glossary of Shotgunspeak.

Or maybe I should use standard English....

Mike,I've run across more jerks (as a proportion) at Practical/Tactical/IPSC matches than elsewhere, but it's still a small minority.

Most of that crew, especially the LE end, are fine shooters and fine human beings.

Most seasoned shooters tend towards reason, the louts and loudmouths tend to weed themselves out early.

Even with old and cantankerous trapshooters, it's only a small minority where, beneath their crusty exteriors beat the hearts of true SOBs....

 

[genie]

last night, i tried a round of trap with the short 18.5" barrel. for readers who happen to be in this lovely state of maryland, i was at the associated gun clubs in marriotsville.

for those that are curious, my impressions are below.

in a word - whoah! it sure did get the attention of the other shooters! they was a few questions if it was even an atf legal barrel. but they only gave me some good natured jesting b/c they were curious as well.

the short length really impacts the weight of the gun especially out front. follow-through was especially difficult b/c it was so quick-handling and light that my support hand would "snap" to the clay and then stop when firing.

additionally, the short barrel has open rifle sights, not a bead. that really changed how my eyes targeted the clay, b/c i was unintentionally treating the clay like a handgun target and trying to aim instead of pointing. this also greatly hindered any follow-through.

all in all, with the short barrel i broke a 10 out of 25 and gave the other shooters some humor for the night. after that, i went back to the long barrel and the weight and bead really helped in follow-thru and sight acquisition. it was fun blasting away but i'll keep the short barrel for serious duty when the shotgun's in the house.

 

[PJR]

Mike,I've run across more jerks (as a proportion) at Practical/Tactical/IPSC matches than elsewhere, but it's still a small minority.

That's my experience too. I remember the disparaging remarks made by the instructor when I showed up for a Black Badge course with my 4" .38 revolver, pancake holster, speed loaders, etc. I was shooting PPC at the time and wanted to try the other sport before investing serious dollars in a race gun.

At my first practice match I was definitely an oddity and some (not all) of the local hotshots paternalistically advised me that wasn't "going anwhere in this sport" with a wheelgun. I would like to say I waxed the tail of the racegunners but finished dead last only to recieve the "I told you so" attitude.

This is in sharp contrast to the warm welcome I got when I showed up at the local trap club with my 18" 870. The rest is history.

Paul

 

[Mike Irwin]

Oh I've run into plenty of jerks with $3,000-$5,000 1911s who think their S don't S, no doubt about it, and lord knows I've written more than one flaming diatribe about the "gentrification" of popular handgun, shotgun, and rifle sports.

In general, though, they seem to be by far the minority at the shoots where I go.

The jerkwad percentage is much higher in the shotgun sports.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Genie, you're a homeguy. The Wednesday crowd at AGC is a good bunch. There's a little known group of seniors who shoot Wednesday afternoon, fine folks.

I'm gonna try to get to PGC Sunday Morning or AGC in the early afternoon. I'll PM you. Maybe we can get together.

As for 10/25, under the circumstances you did good. New games are tough.

 

[Penforhire]

The fellow who got me into skeet let me shoot one of his engraved Beretta o/u's for my first rounds and that was sweet. I ended up buying an 870 and then we shot plenty together. Eventually I even remembered to pump for that second bird...

But anyway, I don't get a lot of snobbery at the regular skeet ranges. Most of the grizzled old guys just say, "yep, that's a real solid gun to start with." But even my friend with the four-&-five-figure guns mentioned the trap people tended to be snobs. I haven't worked up the gumption to give it a whirl.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Snobbery happens with all classes and models of firearms. A few years back, several of us were at the range sighting in scopes for hunting season and a young guy drove up and pulled out his "new" Remington 700. The rifle was obviously used, but the kid was still really proud of it. It had probably taken him a long time to save up to buy it.

In the next lane was two guys with tricked out, glass bedded, composite stocked, top of the line rifles and scopes. They laid into the guy, telling him how sorry his rifle was, that he'd wasted his money on a worn out POS, etc.

Fortunately, a few other shooters stood up for the kid and helped him sight in his scope. They managed to convince him the other two guys were just a couple of idiots and they didn't know what they were talking about.

 

[Guyon]

Hkmp5sd: That would have burned me up. People that base their self-worth on possessions seem to get such a kick out of ridiculing the possessions of others, but in the long run, they're going to miss out on all the really good stuff in life. I'm proud that some of you stood up for the kid.

It ain't what you own. It's how you conduct yourself with what you've got.

 

[Detritus]

Hkmp5sd, i know that if such actions had occured at most of the ranges i've frequented, would be a sure ticket to expulsion or " a kick'in".

derision of newcomers is a HUGE no-no in all the circles i've chosen to travel in, and is a pretty much ganunteed way to get your "acceptance" in the group quickly and permanently revoked.

 

[Dave McCracken]

HK, had I been there, those two would have been told exactly what they could kiss.

Some years back I was checking in a doe at the checkin station and some kid came in with his dad and his first deer, a little button buck. Kid (maybe 13 or so) was proud and his dad was too. Some jerk made a comment about shooting fawns and damn near got his worthless butt kicked by a committee of all present.

Penforhire, most trapshooters that I know aren't snobs. Some are grumpy, opinionated and set in their ways. But a newbie with manners walking onto a trap field meets little hostility and gets much encouragement from most of the folks. Go shoot some trap....

We all know jerks that think money or fancy toys compensate for whatever personal lacks and flaws they have. And we know folks who love the fancy stuff but aren't jerks at all. Dougie, from the Geezer Squad, owns more shotguns that he can remmeber, including Purdeys. A nicer guy never drew breath.

Jerks get really dangerous, however, only when he or she starts thinking the best stuff is what they deserve.

 

[Gerald McDonald]

Snobbery is an unfortunate fact of life. Its our way of showing how superior were are to our fellow man, when deep down inside we are not to sure that maybe he is not superior to us.

I am in the welding business and know a rig welder who is a nice guy but when a rig welder shows up on the job with a small air cooled welder, will actually roll up his welding leads and leave the job rather than sulley his reputation with other rig hands by working with what he sees as a novice.

I ride a Honda motorcycle so I catch a lot of grief from Harley guys, not all, but some. I have found that most who really rip me just recently got Harleys theirself. The guys who have been on HD for years simply say its not what you ride, its that you ride. Me, I dont care what you shoot, drive or ride, wear, litsten to or look like as long as there is no danger to me.

 

[Hawaiian]

I have had the same thoughts when I see someone with cobalt blue hair and earings. When my 13 yr old son spiked his hair, I told him it looked like crap. I also told him that the Rap he was listening to was not music. Then I realized that I had turned into my own Dad as this is the exact words he said to me 35 years ago when I had long hair and listened to Jimi Hendrix. We do grow up and the kid with the blue hair will some day say the same thing to his kid.

As for the Snobs and Jerks, they are everywhere, not just at the range. I actually pity them as they are obviously unhappy individuals and that is why they act the way they do. Those of you that stayed at the range and helped out the kids had a much more enjoyable day than the Jerks that left and grumbled to eachother all the way home.

It feels much better to smile than it does to frown.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Hey Hawaiian,

Best way to nip that kind of stuff in the budd?

Spike your own hair, and start listening to rap.

Your kid will drop that so fast it's not even funny.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Gerald, when I bowhunted I used either a compound with carbon arrows and a release or longbows and recurves with hand sharpened broadheads. Some of my buddies hunted with the latest cam bows, others with bows they made. One started its working life as a fence post.

I cared not a whit whether the next hunter over used an atlatl or somehting belt fed and lazer sighted, as long as he/she hunted safely, ethically, and mostly hit what they aimed at. My buddies bickered over tackle like toddlers in a preschool sandbox just before naptime. But they were ready to outlaw what the others used.

As for snobs and jerks, it's the Bozo Factor. It only takes one clown to $#%^&*( it up for everyone.

 

[HSMITH]

I held off for a long time on this thread, but can't help it. Shotgunning has by far the biggest percentage of real honest-to-goodness dinkheads (<change one letter ). I have shot at gun clubs all over the country and with every type of shooter that I know of except 3 gun and cowboy types, I am anxious to try both.

Trap shooters were the worst 10 years ago, now it seems to be the sporting crowd being the highest in dinks. It is the same type of guy that it was in the trap crowd too, a pompous *** with enough money to make you sick. I REALLY enjoy beating them with "inferior" equipment, a spray painted 870 topping a Krieghoff held by a jerk is priceless. Trap still has more than enough jerks for me, the guy yelling at a newbie over not having a shell catcher or talking during the round, things like that bother the heck out of me. I am not smart enough to keep my mouth shut and it has caused some problems on the trap field when someone gets pissy with another shooter. Unsafe gun handling is the ONLY time to bother over the way another shoots.

The BEST shooters by far in my opinion are high power rifle shooters. These dang guys and gals will do ANYTHING they can to help you shoot well and have fun.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

it happens in every segment of society.


back when i was involved in FIRST (www.usfirst.org), there were really well funded teams who would bend over backwards to help others out.

there were also dinkheads who thought they were "all that and a bag of chips" and sneered at other teams and were unruly and ill behaved. needless to say, people enjoyed when the dinkheads lost rounds.

I've seen snobbery at science fairs, spelling bees, and amongst engineering students in the engineer's club. it's like death and taxes, only more annoying.

 

[Dave McCracken]

The obverse of course, is that all forms of human endeavor have fine folks involved therein.

I shot a few rounds of trap today, with the usual suspects and a few newcomers. No one was a jerk, and the guns ranged from a new Turkish O/U through 870s and 1100s to a jewel like LC Smith SBT and a Kreighoff or two. We hit most of the targets and no one seemed to have more/less fun than the rest.

Jerks in any form make my knuckles itch, a common Psychosomatic disorder in veteran Correctional Officers. The best thing, however, is to indicate in some way that being a jerk or snob really isn't making a good impression.

Occasionally I outshoot folks with high priced and fancy guns. With good folks it's just a source of well intended hilarity, with snob, jerks and those who believe they have the One True Way, it's a good comeuppance.