So...are you an offset or a piggyback kind of MRDS backup person?

[The_Quartermaster]

Just asking because the subject is interesting because of the answers being given.



To the right I need it piggybacked for two reasons: Heads up awareness for CQB when a fixed prism is a bit much (I'm a red dot guy) at CQB, not great for occluded aiming, and I prefer to aim passively with night vision and not emit because even the John Brown Club (antifa) has night vision too.

On the left and also why the two are off centered to each other is because it's an AR-10 and not another AR-15 that is to it's right. Anyway, it's an older ACOG model but the RMR can still be mounted on top with a mount from Trijicon. However it's not my ride or die like the right but if needed I like having a CQB option that's better than the ACOG itself at short ranges.

Also, this is not a flex, I don't judge what others use, or limited in funds buy. Not my lane, none of my business. Just sharing what I currently have on hand as an example of.

 

[jmorris]

Offset, same cheek and shoulder position, just roll the rifle CC 25 degrees. Going the other way seems like it would be odd for me (right handed) but I haven’t tried them on that side. Did try a Jpoint on top once, didn’t work out for me.

Probably like shoes, everyone is going to be a little different as far as what they prefer.

 

[entropy]

Neither. That's why I have a 1-8x scope.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

Offset, same cheek and shoulder position, just roll the rifle CC 25 degrees. Going the other way seems like it would be odd for me (right handed) but I haven’t tried them on that side. Did try a Jpoint on top once, didn’t work out for me.

Probably like shoes, everyone is going to be a little different as far as what they prefer.

I'm a southpaw. I will say that no matter which is your preferred side the offset has it's niche not just for surprise threats. Think asymmetric shooting positions.

I am really not a fan of it being high either but for standing while clearing your house the heads up is pretty neat. But makes for a really crappy weld for anything else other than. I'm definitely a cheek weld person.

 

[12Bravo20]

@The_Quartermaster do you shoot left or right hand?

The reason I ask is that it is better to put the offset RDS on the outside so that you roll your rifle in to use the offset sight. Rolling inwards is more natural than having to roll the rife out/away from you. This is no different then how we were taught to shoot our M16 rifles while wearing protective masks (gas masks).

To answer your question. While I haven't used a RDS as a backup in quite some time, I prefer having them offset. One, it keeps the optic closer to the centerline of the bore axis. Two, it is easy and quite natural (with training) to keep your head in position and just roll the rifle inwards until the offset sight is lined up.

 

[mavracer]

Offset, same cheek and shoulder position, just roll the rifle CC 25 degrees. Going the other way seems like it would be odd for me (right handed) but I haven’t tried them on that side. Did try a Jpoint on top once, didn’t work out for me.

Probably like shoes, everyone is going to be a little different as far as what they prefer.

I've really just started into secondary sighting stuff. But this is what I've found most intuitive so far.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

@The_Quartermaster do you shoot left or right hand?

The reason I ask is that it is better to put the offset RDS on the outside so that you roll your rifle in to use the offset sight. Rolling inwards is more natural than having to roll the rife out/away from you. This is no different then how we were taught to shoot our M16 rifles while wearing protective masks (gas masks).

To answer your question. While I haven't used a RDS as a backup in quite some time, I prefer having them offset. One, it keeps the optic closer to the centerline of the bore axis. Two, it is easy and quite natural (with training) to keep your head in position and just roll the rifle inwards until the offset sight is lined up.

I'm definitely a wrong hand.

The last time I had to qualify with the mask on, we had the M17 pro mask and was issued an M16A1. When I had retired we had the M40 and I had our NBC guys place the filter on the right side and the JLIST had replaced the old charcoal suits. I haven't been keeping up with it's possible replacements though.

 

[12Bravo20]

We posted our last responses at the same time, otherwise I would not have asked if you shoot left hand.

All I ever used was the M17 mask, I retired in 96. It is the same technique when using an offset RDS as when shooting with a mask on. I prefer to keep things simple and not have too many different techniques to train for.

 

[FL-NC]

Neither. That's why I have a 1-8x scope.

What he said. These piggyback setups were around in my unit around '06. A few guys used them, but I wasn't a fan- at the time I was using a 4X ACOG for patrolling in the desert. All I did was I put some bright red nail polish on the front peep sight that sits on top of the ACOG and remembered that I needed to hold where the neck meets the chest for close quarters engagements. I noticed that the guys that tried to use these over-under setups had issues during evaluated drills making time and getting good hits on target.

 

[FL-NC]

This is no different then how we were taught to shoot our M16 rifles while wearing protective masks (gas masks).

The last time I had to qualify with the mask on, we had the M17 pro mas

The method I used when firing with a protective mask was to collapse my stock completely, and push the weapon FORWARD to brace it on the tight sling (VTAC). So the sling ended up tight with the weapon pressed forward, and the butt ended up about 6" forward of my shoulder where it normally sat. When using a RDS like a M68 or EOTECH, the eye relief wasn't an issue, and as long as the weapon was stable, I could fire pretty darn fast and accurately at closer engagements. I was told that this was a method used by the FBI. I also heard of some people in other units mounting the RDS higher than normal on a riser to facilitate firing with a mask, but I never tried it.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

What he said. These piggyback setups were around in my unit around '06. A few guys used them, but I wasn't a fan- at the time I was using a 4X ACOG for patrolling in the desert. All I did was I put some bright red nail polish on the front peep sight that sits on top of the ACOG and remembered that I needed to hold where the neck meets the chest for close quarters engagements. I noticed that the guys that tried to use these over-under setups had issues during evaluated drills making time and getting good hits on target.

Were you an 18 series? Because if I read my history right it was the 18's that got that ball rolling.

 

[12Bravo20]

The method I used when firing with a protective mask was to collapse my stock completely, and push the weapon FORWARD to brace it on the tight sling (VTAC). So the sling ended up tight with the weapon pressed forward, and the butt ended up about 6" forward of my shoulder where it normally sat. When using a RDS like a M68 or EOTECH, the eye relief wasn't an issue, and as long as the weapon was stable, I could fire pretty darn fast and accurately at closer engagements. I was told that this was a method used by the FBI. I also heard of some people in other units mounting the RDS higher than normal on a riser to facilitate firing with a mask, but I never tried it.

You have to remember that I was still old school and the M4 was new when I got out in 1996. We were still using the M16A2. Only SF, 82nd, and 101st had the M4 at that time as far a state side units go. I can't say when forward delayed units in Germany, Korea, or other places received their M4 carbines since I left Germany in Dec 1994. My unit at Ft Irwin/NTC got issues M4 carbines after I left in Feb 96. And for most units at that time, only combat vehicle crews were issued the M4. For most units, the M4 was a replacement for the M3A1 (grease gun) and/or pistols.

 

[FL-NC]

You have to remember that I was still old school and the M4 was new when I got out in 1996. We were still using the M16A2. Only SF, 82nd, and 101st had the M4 at that time as far a state side units go. I can't say when forward delayed units in Germany, Korea, or other places received their M4 carbines since I left Germany in Dec 1994. My unit at Ft Irwin/NTC got issues M4 carbines after I left in Feb 96. And for most units at that time, only combat vehicle crews were issued the M4. For most units, the M4 was a replacement for the M3A1 (grease gun) and/or pistols.

Correct. We (SOCOM) were issued the M4 in 1994 just prior to the "haitian vacation" to replace the earlier carbines like the MK 272 and any remaining M16 rifles in our inventory.

 

[FL-NC]

Were you an 18 series? Because if I read my history right it was the 18's that got that ball rolling.

Yes. I was under the impression that these setups originated in the 3 gun competition community, and moved in our direction but I could be misinformed. No setups like this were ever an "official" part of the SOPMOD kit until version 2 (?) that started being issued in '06 or '07, but they were procured through other sources prior to SOPMOD 2. In the version 2 kit, the 4X ACOG was removed from the kit and the Elcan 1-4X specter POS replaced the ACOG, The specter came with the optional top mounted RDS. This was about the time I left "team life" and moved on to another assignment, so I didn't get much time using kit #2. I believe the RDS that was included was Doctor Optics but I could be mistaken. The setup wasn't very popular with the M4 but I do recall seeing it used on the SAW/MK46 LMG. Many of my former team mates continued using the ACOG or transitioned to the 1-4 or 1-6X optics that were available at the time.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

You have to remember that I was still old school and the M4 was new when I got out in 1996. We were still using the M16A2. Only SF, 82nd, and 101st had the M4 at that time as far a state side units go. I can't say when forward delayed units in Germany, Korea, or other places received their M4 carbines since I left Germany in Dec 1994. My unit at Ft Irwin/NTC got issues M4 carbines after I left in Feb 96. And for most units at that time, only combat vehicle crews were issued the M4. For most units, the M4 was a replacement for the M3A1 (grease gun) and/or pistols.

Certain units of III Corp had it too, my first M4 was a CH and not a flattop back in 97. When I left Hood for Schofield in 98, the A2's there had M68 CQO's on cantilevers but not for long as we all converted to the flattop M4's. After Hawaii, Germany still had units with A2's in 1AD because there were not enough M4's to go around until after OIF1 was done with and became OIF2 while still in theater.

And if memory serves me right, the SF M4's were just 723's before they started getting issued true M4's. But I could be wrong here. The 723 was an M4 barrel with a C7 CH upper. There are pictures between Gothic Serpent and right before GWOT showing some SF using 723's.

 

[12Bravo20]

Correct. We (SOCOM) were issued the M4 in 1994 just prior to the "haitian vacation" to replace the earlier carbines like the MK 272 and any remaining M16 rifles in our inventory.

Prior to 94, the only time I saw anything other than an A1 or A2 was while I was stationed at Ft Devens in 1991. But then again we had all kinds of neat toys in the arms room there.

Up until I got out in 96, we didn't see optics other than the old starlight scopes outside of being stationed at Ft Devens. And we really didn't have much as far as optics goes even then.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

Yes. I was under the impression that these setups originated in the 3 gun competition community, and moved in our direction but I could be misinformed. No setups like this were ever an "official" part of the SOPMOD kit until version 2 (?) that started being issued in '06 or '07, but they were procured through other sources prior to SOPMOD 2. In the version 2 kit, the 4X ACOG was removed from the kit and the Elcan 1-4X specter POS replaced the ACOG, The specter came with the optional top mounted RDS. This was about the time I left "team life" and moved on to another assignment, so I didn't get much time using kit #2. I believe the RDS that was included was Doctor Optics but I could be mistaken. The setup wasn't very popular with the M4 but I do recall seeing it used on the SAW/MK46 LMG. Many of my former team mates continued using the ACOG or transitioned to the 1-4 or 1-6X optics that were available at the time.

Thanks for that, it does connect the dots here.

Since you guys are so small, you may have actually served with or at least heard of him. Jeff gives a really good breakdown at the unit level. I was really surprised that there wasn't enough of things for everyone at times.

 

[12Bravo20]

And if memory serves me right, the SF M4's were just 723's before they started getting issued true M4's. But I could be wrong here. The 723 was an M4 barrel with a C7 CH upper. There are pictures between Gothic Serpent and right before GWOT showing some SF using 723's.

Some of the very first M4 carbines issued in 1994 were actually marked as "XM4" and had the A2 uppers. So a goose neck mount or standard carry handle mount would have been used with them.

 

[entropy]

There were some wild adaptations in between the XM177E2 and the M4.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

Some of the very first M4 carbines issued in 1994 were actually marked as "XM4" and had the A2 uppers. So a goose neck mount or standard carry handle mount would have been used with them.

I had the A2 type on mine at Hood. Lol at my surprise giving the supply kid my weapons card and then seeing him give me a new one along with the M4. The 723 uses an A1 CH upper but with the A2 shell deflector, and at the beginning had pencil barrels and later the M4 because of M203 requirements.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

There were some wild adaptations in between the XM177E2 and the M4.

Ya, interesting to say the least.

 

[12Bravo20]

There were some wild adaptations in between the XM177E2 and the M4.

We still had some XM177E2's in the arms room when I was at Ft Devens. I think they even had a couple of the original optics for them too.

 

[mavracer]

Yes. I was under the impression that these setups originated in the 3 gun competition community, and moved in our direction but I could be misinformed.

I would imagine so. I was gonna comment that I remember using LPVO for IPSC rifle side matches in the early 90s before 3 gun caught on and they stopped referring to it as IPSC and started calling it USPSA.
One of the first scopes I uses was a Burris signature 1.5-6X back then.
I quit competing in the mid 90s as single dad life took effect, but still practice that style shooting some.
Only reason I went down the secondary red dot path is I switched my general purpose carbine from a 3-9X SFP scope to a 3-12X FFP and while I love it at 3X the center of the reticle about disappears which is ok for big targets I often shoot smaller stuff and I figured red dots work good for this.
Don't see a need with my 1-8X but I did just put a set of offset irons on it because why not lol.

 

[FL-NC]

Some of the very first M4 carbines issued in 1994 were actually marked as "XM4" and had the A2 uppers. So a goose neck mount or standard carry handle mount would have been used with them.

We had guns like that that were the MK 727. We also had some that were flat tops we got brand new for Somalia that were identical to the present M4 that were marked M16A2 carbine.

 

[FL-NC]

We still had some XM177E2's in the arms room when I was at Ft Devens. I think they even had a couple of the original optics for them too.

I saw some really old guns of this vintage in afg. the air force EOD guys were carrying.