So what's so bad about a little violence fascination?

[winstonsmith]

So, the last bunch movies I rented were violent. So I respect soldiers. So I enjoy reading about shooting and discussing the RKBA with people. So I collect knives and carry them. So I have two gun pinups in my room...

The 'rents are freaking out because I want another airsoft rifle. I want it because shooting sports are fun, it fufills a violent urge in a healthy and non dangerous way. It will allow me to show and cultivate responsibility. It will allow me to improve marksmanship skills.

They submit that my fascination with violence and weapons is evidence of a deep anger inside, and that airsoft is not the way to work that anger out. Also, there are better uses of my time and my money. (emphasis mine)

For the first few years of my life, I was not allowed to see or pretend violence. And we all know how well that turned out. We are continuing the discussion tomorrow.

I'm sure you have heard these reasons and/or accusations from anti's in your families, or just anti's in general. How did you respond? What can I do to show my parent's that allowing me another airsoft rifle is not going to make me a Harris or Klebold?


I mean, they'll trust me with a motor vehicle, that's alot more dangerous statistically than an airsoft rifle.. and even a real rifle....

 

[Devonai]

I don't see anything wrong with craving action and channeling natural aggressive feelings into positive outlets.

Being interested in tools that can serve to save your life is just about the most natural thing there is. Humans have been working on them since the dawn of time.

 

[Zundfolge]

"Antis" believe 2 things that I believe are false.

1. ALL violence is "wrong".
2. Guns cause violence.


sorry, but you can't argue against anti-logic ... you can only get older, and out on your own ... and own whatever you want then.

 

[winstonsmith]

you can only get older, and out on your own ... and own whatever you want then.

Except if they vote away my right to. :banghead:

 

[benEzra]

They submit that my fascination with violence and weapons is evidence of a deep anger inside, and that airsoft is not the way to work that anger out.

That gave me a chuckle. My wife says I am the gentlest person she knows, and I have so far (at age 33) avoided even so much as a fistfight. My competence with weapons (and to a more limited degree, with martial arts--1 yr of isshinryu) is a reflection of deep-seated CONFIDENCE, not aggression.

Since at least age 10, I have NEVER struck someone in anger (unless you count the time I reflexively put the guy in the gorilla suit in the closet in college, when he jumped me as I exited the bathroom), nor have I ever even cursed someone out. But if the lives of my wife or two children are ever threatened by someone ELSE's aggression, I WILL end said aggression. Using as little force as possible, but as much force as necessary.

My other hobbies are running, literature (including Victorian poetry), physics, and playing the guitar. I have a B.A. in English from a liberal arts college and did some work toward a masters in the same field. I am a loving husband and parent to two young children, one of whom is a special needs child at whose bedside I have sat before and after two open heart surgeries, five angioplasties, and abdominal surgery. My screen name here comes from the Robert Browning poem "Rabbi ben Ezra," which pretty much sums up my rather optimistic philosophy of life. All reflections of deep-seated anger, I'm sure.

BTW, besides myself, I personally know three other individuals who own AK-style rifles. One is a successful technical illustrator with a loving family, one is a very kind professor of physics at a liberal arts college (also happily married with two children), and one is a professor of electrical engineering (retired from U.S. government civil service).

 

[GigaBuist]

I checked your profile, and you're 15 -- in 2 (or is it 3) years you become draft eligible. Between the ages of 17-25 I darned near consider it -mandatory- that every US male should keep some degree of firearms proficiency: they could be drafted. Now, at 15 you pretty much have no "need" to be shooting or interested in firearms. Not that anybody in the US should have " need" something to want to do it.

There's nothing wrong with AirSoft or Paintball games. They're a combative sport just like wrestling. I'm a meek and mild kind of guy, the last one to start a ruccus, but I wrestled from the time I was 8 to 18 (well, my last match was when I was 21) -- and in that time beating the living snot out of other guys didn't ever make me more prone to violence. If anything gave me violent tendencies it was the intense level of testosterone flowing in my veins -- not what I was actually doing.

Besides, keeping your hands in the shooting sports brings a nice blend of extra things into your vision that isn't usually of much concern to the average teenager: Politics, History (especially American history), and to some degree physics and economics. I enjoy all four of the above so the shooting sports bring much more to the plate for me than just shooting.

Having violent urges is just a male thing. We're predisposed to violence -- and protecting others. It's just our thing -- and in the teenage years the testosterone leads even more so to violent thoughts. It's not unnatural, so why fight it? Just find healthy outlets for it.

There's a time and a place for violence. Sad but true. Given that you're naturally violent by nature (male and in your teens) the best thing to do is find healthy outlets for that. Not doing so has lead (IMHO) to the demasculization of the male portion of our population.

Nothing wrong with violent movies -- I watched Rambo III in the theatre with my dad when I was 8. I own all 3 on DVD. I own what some would consider an "arsenal" (THR members would consider it meager) -- but I'm not running around shooting people. I own and carry a few different knives -- I've never stabbed anybody, except myself on accident.

If your parents keep aware of your activites and keep talking to you there probably won't ever be any sort of problem. Talk to them about your political views -- they may not agree with them -- but so long as they're sane thoughts they should have nothing to worry about. Saying something like "I completely disagree with Diane Feinstein's gun control stance and would like to see it defated in Congress" is perfectly healthy. If you start spouting stuff like, "I disagree with her legislation and would like to see somebody put a 30-06 into her from 200 yards" -- THEN they have something to worry about!

Keep the channels of communications open. Let them know they should do the same. Try pointing out all the good things that can come of your education and the possible paths that it could lead you into: becoming active in politics (maybe even running for office), law enforcement, joining the military, etc. It's far more likely that your current hobbies would lead you down that path than the raving lunatic on the belltower with a rifle path. If nothing else it opens your eyes to issues that the vast majority of the population is ever-so-willing to just stick their head in the sand when forced to think about them.

If they want you to be "more normal" just tell them, "Fine. I'll be out this weekend getting smashed off cheap beer and sleep with the first willing girl I find. No airsort involved, will that be okay with you?"

 

[winstonsmith]

If they want you to be "more normal" just tell them, "Fine. I'll be out this weekend getting smashed off cheap beer and sleep with the first willing girl I find. No airsort involved, will that be okay with you?"

I didn't realize they were mutually exclusive, even though they should never be temporally coinciding...

You're right, it's all part of the demasculinaztion of men. Like the underwear models, who are hairless and sculpted. That's not what man looks like, even less then britney is what a woman looks like.

Won't controlling violent urges lead down the same road as controlling sexual urges? In disaster?

 

[Black92LX]

sorry to hear about you troubles man. when i first started getting into guns my mom didn't really like it. but then she saw how responsible i am with them, and she has no problem with it. I am glad she has come around she is buying me an AK for Christmas, and when we go to pick it up she is going to look for herself a .38 so that we can takes classes together.

 

[Zundfolge]

Won't controlling violent urges lead down the same road as controlling sexual urges? In disaster?

No. controlling violent and sexual urges is what makes us civilized.

Channeling any energy (be it sexual or violent) into something useful is a way to control those urges.

You shouldn't be screwing at random any more then you should be killing at random.

 

[winstonsmith]

Agreed. I meant repressing, instead of controlling.

 

[Edward429451]

You sound like you have your head on pretty straight, winston. One of my distant relatives is one of the higher up muckity mucks in the Cooke County Hospital in Illinois in the Psychiatry dept and at one of our see em at every ten year get together whatever functions, we was talking about guns & violence and stuff and he came out with that it is healthy psychologicly to go shooting at the range because it was a behaviorally acceptable activity that serves as an outlet to pent up agression and allowed a relief of stress through physical activity and mental focus and resulant chemical activity in the brain that comes from it. (Something like that, I'm no doc.)

It's a physically and psychologically healthy pastime. You just can't seem obsessive compulsive about it in front of mixed company.

OH NO, gunnies gotta go 'in the closet' now!

 

[Ryder]

I'm sure you have heard these reasons and/or accusations

Don't be so sure about that.

I grew up living on a farm. Guns were tools just like a shovel or hoe. I've done a lot of killing over the years. Nobody ever accused me of being violent. Coming back from the woods is no different than coming back from the supermarket. It just takes longer to prepare the food and you have a lot of mud to scrape off your boots.

I can't imagine why "big city folk" would not fear guns and the people who own them. I probably would too if I'd never seen a gun used to sustain human life, only to take it. Don't take your parent's concerns the wrong way. They are worried about you because they care about you more than anything else in the world.

Showing and cultivating responsibility is taught by guns but there will always be time to learn that. It is easily aquired and won't be forgotten. Responsibility can also be practiced and demonstrated strongly by proving to your parents that you respect them. Aquiring this kind of responsibility will mean a lot more to you when you get older and there isn't a better time to show that than right now. They can't be forgotten either and you have no way of knowing that this can be achieved at a later time.

I love to talk guns with people but if I find out the subject doesn't interest someone I respect that and avoid the subject. Plenty of other subjects worth talking about. I won't forego my beliefs but guns are not something I am willing to push back on to the point it interferes with a relationship.

You catch more flies with sugar. Stay . Good luck with your discussions.

 

[benEzra]

A lot of non-shooters seem to think that target shooting is somehow an aggressive or angry pastime. Actually, because of the mental discipline required to shoot well, it is remarkably calming and mind-clearing. I once went running before going to the range and still had the heart rate monitor on when I went shooting. After setting up targets downrange, I came back (heart rate slightly elevated, I noticed) and picked up my 3913, took a couple of breaths, let the last one halfway out, focused hard on the front sight, finger on trigger--and happened to glance at the heart rate monitor, which had dropped from around 80 BPM to less than 60 (IIRC) in 20 seconds. Surprised me.

Winston, considering your parents' attitudes, I would indeed be careful about what movies you rent for the time being, if for no other reason that THEIR idea of gun ownership and use is going to be shaped by what they see you watch. If they think you look to Charles Bronson or whoever as a role model, well, they might get the wrong idea about your interests. I don't personally care for gory violent movies--the ones that seem to show senseless violence for violence's sake--so I can see how someone who is leery of gun owners/ownership to start with could get the wrong idea. Just my $0.02.

 

[Nightfall]

You already own an airsoft gun, correct? You haven't become dangerous and violent have you? Well, point out that you have proven you are trust worthy.

Or you could do what I did. Beg, reason, harass, every day. Rinse and repeat for a few years, and wear them down. That's how I got my first real gun around your age.

 

[AJ Dual]

Parental psyops...

Winstonsmith,

You just need to off-handedly throw your 'rents a few mental bones here. By all means engage in the conversation, but you just need to plant a few seeds here. They're obviously somewhat worried that you've got a touch of "Harris&Kleebold" syndrome.

Ever watch the news, or read a paper when your parents are around? Is the news on the radio in the car? You know, make the normal "shake your head" kind of comments whenever anyone hears about egregious examples of violence or crime.

- When you hear about crime or some kind of violence in their earshot, speak up. Make some kind of rehtorical comment/question.

"What kind of person do you have to be to do that to someone else? What is wrong with them? Do they ever think about what it'd be like to have (whatever they did) done to them?" etc. etc.

- If you haven't dated recently, or brought a girl home, mention a girl around them. Watch them perk up, just like dogs when you reach for the drawer where bones are kept. (that was allways fun anyway)

- Get noticably upset if you hear of Airsoft, paintball, or bb gun misuse etc. Mention how it makes you and your friends who enjoy the sport look bad.

- After an airsoft skirmish, tell your folks how much fun you had, but also that you occasionaly think about what it'd be like if all those flying 6mm bb's were real bullets, and how easy it is to be maimed or die... Mention that it gives you awsome respect for soldiers and police, knowingly going into harms way like that. (I had an epiphany like that my first organized paintball game I played...)

- At Christmas time with the family get-together or whatnot, if you normally don't, take time to play with or entertain a younger cousin, or niece/nephew of yours. Take your turn at holding the baby that's being passed around.

 

[El Tejon]

All young boys like to fight. Before my nephews could walk they were making fists and punching into the air.

The male proclivity toward aggression and fighting is necessary. However, it must be harnessed and disciplined by the parents who teach right from wrong and how to channel his aggression. Learning to fight is not magic, but hard work. Hard work takes discipline which must be instilled from birth.

This hard work transforms and channels male aggression into knowing the "when" and the "when not" (and "who never") as well as the "how." A scapel is dangerous, but it can save your life if it is in the hands of someone who has the knowledge of the when and how.

Obviously your parents have rejected this responsibility and wish to stick their heads in the sand and pretend the world is a violence-free petting zoo. The solution is up to you: show them that you are disciplined by your behavior. Show them that you are not some raging monster or thug.

Have you attacked anyone with your airsoft? Have you damaged anyone's property with it? Have you threatened or scared anyone? Have you behaved as a Decent, Normal Human Being? If not, what could possibly be their objection?

I thought you were studying KM in San Fransico? Does not your instructor stress discipline at school and at home? Does this not transfer into other areas of your life?

 

[BHPshooter]

Winston, I can empathize in a way. My parents have had their days.

I read your profile and saw that you're 15. That's a tough age to be and have an interest in firearms. Heck, I'll be 20 tomorrow, and it's tough for me sometimes.

Don't go telling your parents this, but violence is part of life. Plain and simple. It's not desireable, but it isn't something that you can get rid of either.

There is nothing wrong with recognizing the fact that violence is real, and that it is pretty much omnipresent. The testosterone raging through your veins (and mine too) makes it something that's hard to get off of your mind.

Like someone else said, I'm a nice guy. Perhaps the reason violence is on my mind a lot is because it scares the crap out of me. I don't know if you've ever been in a fistfight, but they're not what you'd call fun. As you get older (Ha! I'm a day away from 20 and already saying that...) you'll find things that don't work as well as they should and that hurt more than they should. Even though just a couple of years ago I was a fit, toned, athletic guy, lately health problems have prevented me from working out, and I'm not very strong anymore. I wouldn't be too good in a fistfight anymore. That makes the use of a weapon prudent, but it is something that must not be taken lightly.

Take it a little more seriously: avoid renting the violent movies. Every time you see something gory or violent on TV or a movie, make a sound of disgust. Seriously.

Gaining ground with parents is a series of baby steps. Start with something a little less objectionable for them (usually this would be AirSoft). Wait until the next Summer Olympics and watch the Archery competition. All of it. Start dropping hints about how you want to be an Olympic Archery Target champion, or somthing similar. Buy toy Bows, and use them responsibly. Eventually they might let you get a nice PSE compound bow (be warned: Archery is about as expensive and addictive as shooting firearms!), and you've just opened a door.

Where you live, the driving age is 16, right? If so, then that's another door. Your parents can't keep constant control of you once you have free reign over where you can go. Eventually you'll be going where you want, and doing what you want. Use this power responsibly, and honor their curfews. If they see that you have, perhaps you can talk them into letting you get an Airsoft, then a pellet gun, then a real firearm. Baby steps.

That's just an example, of course... you'll have to find out what will work for your own parental units. Perhaps your parents just won't crack. If that's so, then you'll just have to tough it out until you're of proper age to move out and buy your own. (just make sure you won't have to move back in later. Example: college.)

In the end, only you can decide if you have a "violence problem." IMO, there is a difference between wanting to pop someone in the nose and doing so.

And If blood and guts are your thing, maybe you should look into being a surgeon.

Good luck, man.
Wes

 

[winstonsmith]

My fascination with weapons is linked to my struggle for independence. Once I gain independence, I will be "allowed" to practice my RKBA and do airsoft and things. So I see airsoft as the same thing in their mind as staying out all night, or other unproductive activities. It's a waste of time and money, but airsoft is also violent.

My parents are pretty great and reasonable about alot of things, and beleive it or not, I'm about alot more than just violence and weapons. I discussed the cinematography of the Lord of the Rings movies for about 3 or 4 hours straight with my dad.

Speaking of that, it's my dad who I rent most my movies with. The last movie(s) we watched together? Band of Brothers.

On another note, I'm afraid if I push this issue too far then it will backfire. I may get permission to buy an airsoft gun, but I would need to be so insistent that I would sour them to future increments to RKBA, and I don't want that to happen.

2 and a half years can be a very, very, very, very long time.

 

[Dionysusigma]

2 and a half years can be a very, very, very, very long time.

I hear ya. I want and/ or need a CHL, which I know I'm responsible enough to have... but the Federal Gov't, my parents and my wallet all disagree with me. I wish the age was lowered from 18 and 21 to 15 and 18, since you hear all the time about "juveniles" being tried in court as adults anyhow. We, as minors/ quasi-minors (I'm 19) are losing our rights (if we even have any) the more and more this goes on. And y'all don't even have a voice to speak with, since the voting age is 18. Instead of age restrictions, why don't we just make IQ tests mandatory, and base people's rights off of those? It makes just as much sense. :banghead:

Or go the Ireland route and make driving, smoking, and drinking ages all 18.

 

[winstonsmith]

It's truly God's country

Or go the Ireland route and make driving, smoking, and drinking ages all 18.

Went there last summer alone, I have family up there. And let me tell you, even though the drinking age is 18, they don't really follow that strictly

But the thing is, even though I engage in behaviours that may seem irresponsible (drinking with buddies infrequently) I am very responsible about them. I have never blacked out, vomited, or done anything I regret, while drunk.

The same thing goes for firearms, I'm neurotically safe with them, even model or fake ones. I instruct other people on firearms safety, because bad habits are easy to get in to. The reason for ownership of firearms (at least for me) is mostly safety...

I'm probably the most calm and collected person I know. "hothead" is the LAST thing one would describe me as. In arguments, I'm the one who has to ask the other person to stop yelling and/or cussing. That includes my parents. Could this be projection or guilty concience?

 

[BHPshooter]

Could this be projection or guilty concience?

Anyone may correct me, but I don't think that's it; I think it's their attempt at being good parents. That's the funny thing about parenting -- kids don't come with manuals. The thing is that when imperfect people try to do something that they have no clue how to -- sometimes they don't do everything right. Your parents obviously have a problem with, or fear concerning, weapons. They're trying to mold you to view weapons the same way. And now we see the challenges of growing up -- you have this pile of info, and you have to find a way to sift the truth from the sewage. You're obviously doing alright in the rights/tools/weapons facet because, well, you're here. Just remember that most parents are trying to do their best for you, even if they aren't perfect. Worst case scenario, you wait a couple of years, graduate High School, move out, and buy a nice AK.

The point to that babble: Listen to your parents, but even the information from them sometimes needs to be taken with a grain or two of salt. Live your own life.

Wes

Edit: I just re-read that, and Winston, I'm sure you're saying, "Live my own life? Easier said than done." My point was prepare to live your own life. When you go to college (or whatever) you're on your own. You don't answer to anyone, so what you do is up to you. Be patient.

 

[dischord]

Repression ... controlled ... denial

Yeah, repressed is bad, but controlled is good. The problem these days is that parents seem to take the extreme ends. The parents either come down too hard on "rough play" and the boys end up repressing the agression or the parents are in denial about it and the kids get no "nudges" about controlling it.

/armchiar psychologist

AndrewWalkowiak gives some good advice. You also might show them that you have interest in positive role models who use guns -- police, soldiers, body guards, secret service agents, etc. Play up your interest in the "protecting other people" aspect of their jobs and take it beyond just the guns.

 

[TonyB]

After the whole Columbine thing parents are freaked out......a couple of a-holes who just happen to be into guns go on a shooting spree and suddenly ANYONE who likes guns and or shooting must be a ticking time bomb.......the media and PTA's all around the country have pushed this stereo-type to the max.....anyone who plays "violent" video games or likes "violent"movies must have something wrong with them......well guess what....it ain't true......there's a whole bunch of us who like guns,action movies,war movies,and have grown up playing war and cowboys and indians(when the Indians were bad guys too)who never go on killing sprees.........go figure....I'm sure your parents are just doing what they think is best........they don't get off on ruining your good time....they're just concerned....so don't give them any reason to be concerned and they'll come around...if they don't...pretty soon you'll be on your own and it won't matter.....someday you'll have kids and cramp their style too........maybe join a local jr. rifle league or something structured like an NRA shooting team....bi-athilon maybe.......also give the'rents some slack...they're human,and they feel responsable for your well being........
I've found for the MOST part ,people who don't like shooting have never actually done it....maybe that's your awnser.....get them into shooting......

 

[Mark Tyson]

A fascination with guns does not equal a fascination with violence. This is a falsehood perpetrated by the hand-wringing totalitarians of the Brady Bunch and their ilk.

 

[Baba Louie]

A little Violence fascination?
In THIS country?

Why, winstonsmith, you of all people should know that in this day and age, that is positively barbaric behaviour and is to be pooh-poohed at all times by the intelligentsia.
Take sports for example.
Football, always knocking each other down, tackling runners, people getting hurt...
Or my favorite non-contact sport, Professional Basketball (non-contact... right) 4 freebies, and the last one takes ya outta the game
Hockey (sit in the box and/or get ejected)
Baseball (never seen a brawl there by golly)
Rodeo (I personally cheer for the stock)

Elements of violence in each of them, some more than others.
What do you mean these guys (and gals) are venerated heroes in the eyes of the lower middlings (or is it groundlings?)?

And the worst one of them all... hunting

Golf, Tennis, Yachting/Crew, maybe Bicycling, Track or Marathon... these are NON-violent types of activities that the upper echelons can cotton too. (or is that, to?)

Taking tongue from cheek...

But NOOOOOooooooooooooo.
You had to choose the Shooting Sports.
What with ballistics/physics (do some study on that subject for a minute or three), engineering aspects, hunting (know yoah wabbits and wildwife), the use of arms in history... (Insert Thomas Jefferson's quote here)

And finally, as my dear old Dad used to tell me, "Baba Louie, its a violent world out there at times and I plan on being a violent man if thats what it takes to be an old man, so I study it all I can. Its called history. You'd be wise to do the same."

You made it this far and I'd say judging from your interests and writing skill to date, your parents and you have done good so far. As Dr. Evil said to his entourage, "Come on People, Throw me a bone here." Let your parents have some fantasy of still being in control as long as they're footing the bills. Its good for their ego (BTDT), makes them feel needed and loved.

Besides that, some people just need shooting (j/k)