Some questions for those that use .38 Spl/.38 Spl +P for personal protection.

[MCMXI]

If you use .38 Spl or .38 Spl +P for personal protection can you answer these questions.

1. Manufacturer and product
2. P or +P
3. Bullet weight and type
4. Firearm
5. Barrel length
6. Advertised and actual average muzzle velocity
7. Average penetration, expansion and weight retention in bare gel
8. Average penetration, expansion and weight retention in heavy clothing gel

I'm going to start by answering my own questions.

1. Remington Golden Saber Ultimate Defense for Compact Handguns
2. +P
3. 125gr BJHP
4. Ruger LCR
5. 1.875"
6. 975 fps (advertised) and 894 fps (actual, avg of six rounds)
7. 14.2", 1.6X, 100% (avg of six rounds)
8. 14.4", 1.6X, 100% (avg of five rounds)

Bottom line, I think this load is AWESOME out of a Ruger LCR/KLCR.

 

[MCMXI]

Here's one more that I've tested and have considered using.

1. Hornady Critical Defense
2. +P
3. 110gr FTX
4. Ruger LCR
5. 1.875"
6. 1,090 fps (advertised) and 988 fps (actual, avg of five rounds)
7. 11.8", 1.6X, 98.7% (avg of five rounds)
8. 12.4", 1.5X, 99.2% (avg of five rounds)

 

[R.W.Dale]

In my LCR for <38spl I prefer a bullet that doesn't absolutely rely on expansion that you most likely won't get from a snubby revolver.

Right now I carry an old lot of non HP 158g Winchester SWC +p

Velocities are right at 800 fps even.

 

[MCMXI]

In my LCR for <38spl I prefer a bullet that doesn't absolutely rely on expansion that you most likely won't get from a snubby revolver.

I shot 21 JHP rounds into gel last week and all of them expanded just fine. But even if they didn't expand, they'd perform like a lead SWC or RN. I also shot five 158gr LRN bullets (avg vel 731 fps) into bare gel resulting in about 23" of penetration and zero expansion. I'll stick with 14" penetration, 1.6X expansion and 100% weight retention.

 

[556by45guy]

LCR, Corbon 110gr 38spl +P. I chronied it but don't remember the velocity off the top of my head.

 

[moxie]

I also like the Rem. 125+P (Golden Saber) for the LCR. Second choice is the Speer 135+P short barrel.

 

[MCMXI]

I also like the Rem. 125+P (Golden Saber) for the LCR.

I'll post some photos of the new Golden Saber 38Spl +P Ultimate Defense bullets from last week's testing later. The new bullet works great.

 

[Steve C]

I have a variety of SD ammo I've bought over the years when on sale and hand load ammo that I can't find at a reasonable price point. What I load is usually a capricious decision. Right now I have my 4" S&W 67 loaded with Winchester 130gr PDX and snub nose loaded with either 158gr Speer LSWCHP hand loads or 135gr short barrel Gold Dots.

 

[beag_nut]

Ruger SP101 in .357 mag, but using Speer 135 grain Short Barrel.
Reliability and ruggedness. Recoil not a problem. Pick your own barrel length.

 

[P5 Guy]

S&W Model 60 and 60-4 I prefer 158 SWCHP and so do they.

 

[MedWheeler]

I have two revolvers chambered in .357 Magnum that sometimes do nightstand duty. Each has a four-inch barrel. They are both loaded with Remington-UMC .38 Special +P 125-grain SJHP ammunition, which has been typically the most-available and most-affordable appropriate load for the purpose.

I have two snub revolvers chambered in .38 Special that sometimes do carry duty. As I have less faith in the expansion of the above round when fired from a short-barrel (or in its penetration if it does expand well), they are loaded with standard-velocity 125-grain WWB SJFN rounds (semi-jacketed, flat-nose.) These guns are carried so infrequently that I do not bother to seek out the "hi-po" stuff made for them, such as the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135-grain stuff. But, were I to make a habit of carrying them, that's probably what I'd stoke them with.

The guns are all-steel pieces. The two Magnums are a Ruger Police Service Six, and a Taurus Model 66.

The other two are both Charter Arms Undercovers. One has a 1.87-inch barrel; the other has a two-inch barrel.

 

[CZ9shooter]

Buffalo Bore HEAVY +P

158gr SWCHP. Very soft lead.

Carried in 1 7/8 barrel model 637

Advertised as 1000 fps from a 2 inch barrel. I have not personally chronoed them (maybe soon) but there are many reports from people who have and it sounds like the claims are indeed a fact.

Recoil is on the upper end but I dont feel it is too extreme. However, when I exhaust my supply I am eager to try out the standard pressure version. 850fps advertised.

Here is a link to a thread I started about the load:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=730034

 

[sgt127]

I have a 642 that I have carried for close to 20 years as a BUG. Its loaded with 158 LSWCHP +P. For awhile, I carried the Gold Dot short barrel, but, I think I shot it all up one day. So, back to the very low tech, but time proven load.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I shot 21 JHP rounds into gel last week and all of them expanded just fine. But even if they didn't expand, they'd perform like a lead SWC or RN. I also shot five 158gr LRN bullets (avg vel 731 fps) into bare gel resulting in about 23" of penetration and zero expansion. I'll stick with 14" penetration, 1.6X expansion and 100% weight retention.

They'd perform like a 125g non expanding bullet with a RN profile. Not a 158g one with a wide square meplat

You also need to bear in mind I'm a pretty outdoorsy individual who's been known to use his carry piece on occasion to for non life threatening reasons. 14" of penetration isn't exactly a lot and I'm a FIRM believer that two or more holes are better than one. Especially on things with four legs.

If I can count on an exit wound AND expansion I will take it. But I don't bank on a cartridge doing so when it's so close to the low end of FBI minimums.

I've not tested 38 but 125g +p gold dots from a 2" 9mm revolver will go 16"+ all day long (water calculated to gel) @1160 fps. I'm ok with that. But lopping a solid 300fps of velocity off that figure by going to a 38 doesn't give me a lot of confidence in the same weight JHP.

Either way a 158g hard cast SWC sent where it needs to go is NOT going to be ineffective. I've shot critters with expanding and non expanding loads from a 9mm snubby and you'd be surprised how little difference in terminal effects there actually are.

Ironically I carry my 386 xl hunter with Remington 125g SJHP's but at well over 1600fps the mechanics are entirely different upon impact.

 

[Stophel]

Buffalo Bore. 158gr. LSWCHP

I have both the "standard pressure" and the "heavy" loads. The "standard pressure" is still fairly stout. The "heavy" is nice.

And they print right where the sights tell them to. I'm not worried about "overpenetration", and I don't want to worry about underpenetration, so this is the load for me.

I also do use the Remington version. It's not quite as fast, but still respectable.

I use them in my M&P's, both 2" and 4". The "standard pressure" loads live in my Chief's Special. Haven't tried the "heavy" ones in that little gun yet... don't know if I want to!

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

Buffalo Bore 125 +P or 158 +P. Both deserve you checking out.

 

[MCMXI]

I'd like to see some gel test results for LSWC loads. Lead bullets are capable of crushing tissue but have no real cutting feature and I prefer a rotating jacket with sharp petals that expands to almost twice the bullet diameter to increase the chance of cutting major blood vessels. Here's the new Remington Golden Saber shot into calibrated gel set 10ft from the muzzle. The block is 15" long.



Here are the bullets recovered after shooting bare gel (top) and gel covered with heavy clothing (bottom).

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

What barrel length?

 

[zxcvbob]

Ruger 4" Security Six

I usually carry Fiocchi 125 grain XTP +P's, or 158 grain LSWCHP handloads (4.5 grains of American Select)

 

[Tony_the_tiger]

1. Speer GDHPSB (Gold Dot Hollow Point Short Barrel)
2. +P
3. 135 grains, lead core hollowpoint plated/jacketed with copper
4. S&W 442
5. 1.875"
6. Advertised at 860 ft/s out of a 2" barrel. I tested it myself with the following results:





8. Brassfetcher recorded the same projectile at 858 ft/s impacting 20% ballistic gelatin and achieved 8.8" of penetration.

tnoutdoors9 recorded the same projectile at 825.3 ft/s and achieved 12.38" in SIM-TEST ballistic media with a retained weight of 134.8.

I personally shot it through a row of 1-gallon water jugs and it penetrated two jugs completely and was recovered in the third.

This round is the most accurate I have shot out of my 442 and it has a good reputation with the NYPD and on the street. I like it, and think it is among the best engineered gold dots and jhp's in general.

 

[MCMXI]

What barrel length?

1.875" (Ruger LCR)

Tony_the_tiger, Speer states 11" in bare gel and heavy clothing tests from a 2" barrel for the 135gr Gold Dot. Gold Dot bullets are great performers, but then again so are many other bonded bullets.

http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/short_brl.aspx

 

[Tony_the_tiger]

For awhile I was carrying Buffalo Bore's 150 Grain Hard Cast Wadcutter and Corbon's 110 Grain DPX/Barnes round. However, I settled on the 135 Gold Dot after multiple tests for accuracy. We could second guess penetration and FBI standards all day but I have to go with accuracy since one on target at 11" in is worth more to me than one piece of a buckshot spread all the way through. Your mileage may vary which is why I do personal testing with my personal firearms to determine which loads to carry.

My own testing of the round through water jugs, my ability to hit the target with it in the lightweight 442, reports of gel tests on the web, and NYPD reports seem to imply that you could do worse in a .38.

 

[Tony_the_tiger]

Not to deviate too far from the original post, but this is taken from: http://gunrightsradio.com/forums2/index.php?topic=2832.0;wap2

Anthony:
Hi Mas and Friends,

For use in .38 Special snubs (2-inchers) how does the newer Speer 135-grain Gold Dot Hollowpoint (GDHP) developed for the NYPD compare to the old 158-grain LSWCHP +P FBI load?

In particular how does the new Speer load compare to the FBI load in your slaughter house tests for smashing through the thick frontal skull of those exceptionally large hogs you typically use in your testing?

Have you seen any real world shootings with the Speer load yet?

In talking with the Speer staff at the NRA show and looking into other sources it looks like the Speer load duplicates the FBI load for Point of Impact (POI) and penetration depth (in gelatin) while improving on tactical penetration.

Does that about sum it up?

As always, thanks for the help.

- Anthony

flop-shank:
Anthony, FWIW, I tested the .38+P Speer 135 gr. SB load and Corbon 110 gr. DPX by firing them from a 1 7/8" S&W 360PD into four layer denim/Perma-Gel. Speer SB .38+P didn't expand. DPX popped open like a champ. I addition to those two loads, I tested the SB .357 and it also expanded well. IIRC SB .38+P penetrated about 16", DPX around 12", and SB .357 was good for ~ 14". I have not tested the FBI load.

MasAyoob:
Anthony, the 135 grain Gold Dot (short barrel) +P load has been working GREAT for NYPD, the department for whom it was developed by Speer with Ernest Durham leading the engineer team. They have around 35,000 cops on the street, only a couple thousand anymore carrying .38 Special as primary, but a HUGE number of them carrying the .38 snub as backup and as an off duty weapon. They've had a lot of shootings with this load. They are happy with the results.

A big advantage of this load is that with the jacketed bullet and tight crimp to the cannelure, it works in the super-light Scandium and Titanium guns that are now so popular. Because I have both in my carry rotation, I've pretty much switched over to that as my preferred load for snubbies, though I wouldn't feel uncomfortable with it in a 4" gun.

With an all-lead bullet, the case mouth secures much more tenuously to the bullet. When you get the jackhammer recoil that +P delivers with a 3/4 pound .38 revolver, the bullets in adjacent chambers start to come loose and work their way forward, to the point where they "prairie-dog up" and protrude from the face of the cylinder. This, of course, blocks cylinder rotation when the protruding bullet hits the barrel's forcing cone, and effectively locks up the gun. There's no quick fix for it: the gun is dead at that point. This can occur around the third or fourth round.

I've only heard of one case where this happened with an aluminum frame Airweight (didn't see it personally), and have NEVER even HEARD of it happening with an all-steel revolver. I have, however, seen it again and again with Titanium and Scandum frame super-lightweights.

If I was old (well, older) and retired and didn't have to be a role model for anyone and only carried an all-steel or aluminum frame Airweight, I'd be very happy with Remington LSWCHP +P 158 grain .38 Special. Because I sometimes carry a Model 342 in titanium, my belly gun ammo pile has the Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P on top.

Don't mean to equivocate...it's just a more complicated question than it sounds like.

Best,
Mas

 

[MCMXI]

Anthony, FWIW, I tested the .38+P Speer 135 gr. SB load and Corbon 110 gr. DPX by firing them from a 1 7/8" S&W 360PD into four layer denim/Perma-Gel. Speer SB .38+P didn't expand.

Am I reading this correctly? The Speer .38Spl +P 135gr PB load didn't expand when shot through four layers of denim.

 

[CraigC]

The old Remington FBI load, 158gr SWC-HP +P.