Something between 7.62x39 and .308

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I suggested a single shot.

But while berating everyone for not being an adequate shot the OP isn't self confident in his own marksmanship skills to use one
 
Well I'm the next one to speak up for a different caliber. The 260 remington and 6.5 creedmoor have great bullets up to 140+, and the 7mm-08 has great options up to 175+. Both of those are noticeably softer shooting than a 308 and have great industry support in a bolt action. Those 120-140 grain .264" bullets, especially the tough ones, really out perform their weight class on game.
 
Some of you are getting too hung up on the recoil. When you look at the common parameters I outlined (1000 ft. lbs. at 300 yards being all that 99% of deer hunters will ever need), the recoil question takes care of itself.

The few rounds I identified above all have somewhere around 10-12 lbs. of felt recoil in 7 lb. rifles.

This is ideal for another characteristic of what I believe a good deer rifle should have - light weight. Meaning, nobody wants to carry around a 9 lb. scoped beast all day long. Granted, not many people hunt on their feet anymore and that's a shame. Maybe that's why we see so many 9 lb. rifles anymore.

AKMtnRunner - I was specifically wondering about .30 caliber, but you make some great points and of course, there are very good choices today in other calibers. The only issue I have with lighter, flatter-shooting bullets is the damage they do at those velocities.
 
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I wouldn't call the difference between a .30 caliber round with a 200-yard range and 6 lbs. recoil and one with 400+ yard range and 15 lbs. recoil a strawdog scenario.

Seems to me the military isn't either, since they are now looking for a more lethal medium range, medium recoil round as well.

Unfortunately, or conveniently (take your choice), the features of a good battle rifle are also useful when hunting animals that tend to weigh about the same as Homo Sapiens.
 
I wouldn't call the difference between a .30 caliber round with a 200-yard range and 6 lbs. recoil and one with 400+ yard range and 15 lbs. recoil a strawdog scenario.


Seems to me the military isn't either, since they are now looking for a more lethal medium range, medium recoil round as well.

ns.


I would as 15lbs is still quite controlable and hardly takes a superhero to master


Cite please?

Because the only new cartridge the military has fielded recently is 300win mag which runs counter to your entire premise
 
I have an idea for the OP. Let's take a 308 case and shorten it to a 40mm length with similar geometry for the neck and shoulder angle, throw in roughly a 30-30 powder charge and a 150 gr hpbt and see what we get. Might make for a really cool cartridge for a mini Mauser or an ak variant. Should have quite a bit more case capacity than a 7.62x39 and would be easy to build. Call it 7.62 whitetail.
 
If you can drop .30 Cal, one of the new 6.5 Grendel Howa minis would make a sweet little sub 300 yd whitetail gun.
 
I have an idea for the OP. Let's take a 308 case and shorten it to a 40mm length with similar geometry for the neck and shoulder angle, throw in roughly a 30-30 powder charge and a 150 gr hpbt and see what we get. Might make for a really cool cartridge for a mini Mauser or an ak variant. Should have quite a bit more case capacity than a 7.62x39 and would be easy to build. Call it 7.62 whitetail.


See, was that so hard? LOL.

I like it. :D That's basically what I was wondering about - why something like that didn't come around at some point so those who want to use 150+ grain .30-cal bullets can have some kind of intermediate option. Something that holds about 35 grains of powder and uses it efficiently behind 150 and 165-grain bullets.

GtScotty, this thread has been useful in opening my eyes to several calibers I wasn't familiar with. That 6.5, the 6.8 and the .30 Rem are three of them that fit the parameters nicely.
 
adcoch1, you've got me wondering if I could get a barrel for my Savage 10 chambered in that now. ha, ha. The rounds would probably work great in a standard .308 magazine with a block at the rear for length and I could keep the baffle from my 7.62x39 bolt to preserve the short bolt throw. ;)
 
I'm pretty sure Savage chambers rifles in 30BR through their custom shop (basically the same as the 308x1.5). You won't find factory loaded 30 BR ammo AFAIK.
 
Thanks Corn. I'll be giving them a call. Would love to have my .308 converted to something like that, and tapped for a forward scout scope mount.
 
If you can find a bolt Remington 788 in .30-.30 and shoot the 160 gr Leverevolution rounds, you have a viable 300 yard deer rifle. The 22" barrel helps the ballistics over an 18" Marlin lever. Mine is extremely accurate and easy to shoot, no big recoil factor, and light for carrying all day. I was looking for the same thing the OP is, and found it, though the rifle was over 600.00 on GB.
 
Outsider, that's another thing I learned through this thread - that Remington made the 788 in 30-30 for a few years. I didn't know that and yes, I will be keeping my eyes open for one. I agree that with good handloads or the Hornady Leverevolution in a 22" barrel, the 30-30 would make a superb 300-yard deer rifle that doesn't blow them apart on impact.

When I had a scope on my Win. 94, that Leverevolution was great to about 250 yards, however that rifle was pushing 8 lbs. with a scope and not as quick to point.
 
I am sure a savage would be the easiest rifle to set up with 308x1.5 but the cool factor would be added with something like a cz527 or zastava mini Mauser. It is just awesome to have that light and handy of a rifle, although the 788 in 30-30 gets you there too. I really can't believe there aren't more offerings in 30-30 nowadays for the exact reason the OP put this thread together. Somebody is missing a marketing opportunity to take America's deer cartridge and give buyers a chance to waste, er I mean, spend money accessorizing a new toy for deer season.
 
Agreed. That CZ527 is an ideal woods rifle.

I think most folks have been convinced that if 1000 ft. lbs. at 300 yards is good, then 1500 must be better. I also think most folks like to believe they are marksmen who can be accurate with their rifles beyond 300 or even 400 yards, so they look at those ballistics tables all the way out to the Right side.

In reality, most deer are killed inside 200 yards and probably the vast majority inside 100 yards. This is why we keep seeing exploded shoulders and bone fragments from lightweight bullets traveling 2800 fps at impact. It's also, I believe, why most hunters don't shoot more than they do. This is particularly true with today's budget rifles that are considerably lighter than their wood-stocked predecessors. We all know that even a .243 in a 7 lb. rifle kicks like a 9 lb. '06. Just imagine how much someone will want to shoot their shiny new Ruger American in 30-06. Probably not that much. Few, if any will buy 4, 5 or 6 brands of ammo and really test it until they find the most accurate one.

Not only are the rifle manufacturers missing the boat here, I think ammo manufacturers are too. If a person is able to realize 1000 ft. lbs. at 300 yards is all the deer rifle they will ever need, and they start shooting lighter rifles in calibers where recoil is not an issue, they will shoot them more.

I haven't spent the kind of time behind a rifle that many here have, being primarily a bowhunter for the past 35 years, but once I really began to examine the numbers and put the rifle on the bench at 300 yards, this pattern became very apparent to me.

The "holy grail" of accuracy for the typical deer hunter is 1 MOA, meaning most folks are NOT shooting that well but rather are pursuing that level of accuracy. So by deduction (and observation of many shooters at the range), that means the majority of deer hunters are satisfied with 1.5-2" groups at 100 yards, off a good rest. Those groups enlarge to 6-8" at 300 yards (if they can even see that well) and how many deer hunters have as solid a rest where they are hunting as they do at the gun range? Very few.

Add to this the fact that MOST deer hunters are shooting factory ammo that honestly isn't capable of much better than 1.5" at 100 yards or 6" at 300 anyway, and what you soon realize is that the majority of deer hunters can't realistically make a clean shot beyond about 200 yards. At 300, even if they do make a decent shot, most can't tell exactly where the animal was standing to be able to start tracking it - esp. in the woods.

So why have American hunters been sold this notion they need 500+ yard deer rifles? I have no idea. It's just not based in reality.

And before any other sensitive soul takes offense to these ideas, I fully realize that there are exceptional riflemen to whom these "rules of thumb" just don't apply. If you feel offended by anything I wrote above, it's probably because you are one of the exceptions and not the rule.
 
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Agreed. That CZ527 is an ideal woods rifle.

I think most folks have been convinced that if 1000 ft. lbs. at 300 yards is good, then 1500 must be better. I also think most folks like to believe they are marksmen who can be accurate with their rifles beyond 300 or even 400 yards, so they look at those ballistics tables all the way out to the Right side.

In reality, most deer are killed inside 200 yards and probably the vast majority inside 100 yards. This is why we keep seeing exploded shoulders and bone fragments from lightweight bullets traveling 2800 fps at impact. It's also, I believe, why most hunters don't shoot more than they do. This is particularly true with today's budget rifles that are considerably lighter than their wood-stocked predecessors. We all know that even a .243 in a 7 lb. rifle kicks like a 9 lb. '06. Just imagine how much someone will want to shoot their shiny new Ruger American in 30-06. Probably not that much. Few, if any will buy 4, 5 or 6 brands of ammo and really test it until they find the most accurate one.

Not only are the rifle manufacturers missing the boat here, I think ammo manufacturers are too. If a person is able to realize 1000 ft. lbs. at 300 yards is all the deer rifle they will ever need, and they start shooting lighter rifles in calibers where recoil is not an issue, they will shoot them more.

I haven't spent the kind of time behind a rifle that many here have, being primarily a bowhunter for the past 35 years, but once I really began to examine the numbers and put the rifle on the bench at 300 yards, this pattern became very apparent to me.

The "holy grail" of accuracy for the typical deer hunter is 1 MOA, meaning most folks are NOT shooting that well but rather are pursuing that level of accuracy. So by deduction (and observation of many shooters at the range), that means the majority of deer hunters are satisfied with 1.5-2" groups at 100 yards, off a good rest. Those groups enlarge to 6-8" at 300 yards (if they can even see that well) and how many deer hunters have as solid a rest where they are hunting as they do at the gun range? Very few.

Add to this the fact that MOST deer hunters are shooting factory ammo that honestly isn't capable of much better than 1.5" at 100 yards or 6" at 300 anyway, and what you soon realize is that the majority of deer hunters can't realistically make a clean shot beyond about 200 yards. At 300, even if they do make a decent shot, most can't tell exactly where the animal was standing to be able to start tracking it - esp. in the woods.

So why have American hunters been sold this notion they need 500+ yard deer rifles? I have no idea. It's just not based in reality.

And before any other sensitive soul takes offense to these ideas, I fully realize that there are exceptional riflemen to whom these "rules of thumb" just don't apply. If you feel offended by anything I wrote above, it's probably because you are one of the exceptions and not the rule.
Well said! I bought into the "bigger must be better" mindset when I was younger. I don't follow that motto any longer. I have noticed that I enjoy shooting my smaller caliber deer rifles throughout the year now instead of juat a couple times a week before season starts like I used to.
 
I just took my new cz527 in 7.62x39 for it's first walk in the woods/function test, and yeah a rifle that light is REALLY nice in a light little caliber. I think a 308 at that weight would be a bit of a handful, but then again you aren't shooting 50 rounds or so of 308 while deer hunting. Bigger isn't always better...
 
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A 308 is not a large powerful rifle. It is easy to get a 308 with 150g bullets "down" to 2400 fps if that is your objective. I hunt with a 5.5 lb (including scope) kimber bolt rifle. It has a muzzle brake and the recoil is not a problem. I shot two elk with it this year. One at 250 yes and the other at 150 yds. It was almost dark for the 250yd shot and I am glad I did not have to worry about bullet drop which is one variable your so called 'experienced riflemen' like to minimize. I have dropped down from a 300 wm to this 308(150 barnes at 2940 fps) for my hunting rifle with little observed disadvantage. If I was using a 3030 which I have I am definitely giving up some 'clean killing' ability. Velocity is a big deal in the damage a bullet does when it hits the animal. Your supposition about killing at 300 yds with said imaginary round will cause you problems in real world hunting situations. Remember just because a 22r will kill a deer does not mean it is effective enough to be humane.
 
Casefull, I'm specifically talking about deer rifles. But you raise a good point. Many people want to own an elk-capable rifle, and they will use it for deer until the time comes ( if ever ) they get the chance to hunt elk.

However the subject is deer rifles, and I would love to hear any argument that suggests a caliber that generates 1000 ft. lbs. at 300 yards is insufficient for deer.

Also, your .22 analogy is non-sequitur, since we're talking about a caliber that generates 1000 ft. lbs. at 300 yards, meaning it's going to be pushing 1700 ft. lbs. at 100.

If you think your .308 pushing a 150 grain bullet at 2940 fps. is not a "large powerful rifle," you're either a big guy, or you've never tried handing it to a new shooter. Is it the most powerful out there? Of course not. What I'm suggesting is that it's simply more than the typical deer hunter needs, and the numbers prove this out.

I've been hunting deer a while now. They are not hard to kill once you realize deer hunting is an accuracy game, not an energy game. And considering that, I'd much rather have an army of deer hunters shooting guns they have run 1000 rounds through, than guns they only want to shoot long enough to get their scope "close enough."
 
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Not quite a 30 cal but my 6.8 will drive a 120g bullet to 1kft lbs past 275 yards

A little further if I want to load the SST a little heavier

Its in a AR15 platform, and is light...... and definitly kicks less than a 308

It is my DRT bullet on big Texas pigs
 
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