Speedway is anti gun

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Freedom_fighter_in_IL said:
Well basic, last year I paid well over 100k in taxes, over 10k in licenses and fees and insurance, lord only knows how much in sales taxes id have to go over the books (something else I contribute to my community, I pay an accountant) I employ 26 people so I pay unemployment insurance. I pay more in taxes than the average person in this town makes! So do not sit there in your lazyboy and attempt to dictate to me what I can and cannot do in my OWN business because you paid a whopping 1500 in state taxes that go for the roads!!! If I say no firearms in my shop then by God I mean no firearms in my shop and I have every legal right to do so as does ANYONE ELSE! I've said it time and time again, it is people with the "I don't give a damn what you want Ill carry in YOUR store or property if I want to" attitude that cause more problems than solutions!!! Change your attitudes, and you may find that things will change to the better with that!
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How would you handle the situation if you caught someone carrying in you place of business?
 
Eddie I am not against it personally. Of course here in the socialist state of Illinois, unless you are law enforcement, you can not carry so either it would be a cop or a bad guy (in this county one in the same for a lot of them). If I were against it, and had posted such, I would politely ask them to vacate my store while armed. AGAIN I am not against carry, hell I am 100% BEHIND it. What I am against is the attitude that some seem to have that THEIR rights are more important than MINE! And some can't seem to get that point in their brains.
 
If I say no firearms in my shop then by God I mean no firearms in my shop and I have every legal right to do so as does ANYONE ELSE!
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Yup, you have the legal right to ASK.

In fact, you have several choices on how to enforce that request. You may ask those who make it known that they've brought guns into your establishment to leave. If they do not, you can ask the police to charge them with trespassing.

If you buy metal detectors and employ security personnel to screen customers entering your establishment, you can then deny entry to those (righteous OR evil) who don't follow your rules.

In a few states, you can even post your wishes at the door (with a "Gun Buster" sign or whatever) and the law will back up your policy. Then you can actually have the law prosecute anyone you catch violating your company policy. (Personally ... yikes. :eek:)

What you CANNOT do is assume that ANYONE -- either lawfully carrying a weapon for righteous purposes, or unlawfully carrying one for evil purposes -- will follow your rules simply because you said so. You may wish it, but the world often doesn't work the way we might like, and wishing doesn't make it so.

A hint to the wise: those lawful people carrying for righteous purposes are FAR more likely to acquiesce to your request than that other sort -- which to my way of thinking, rather defeats the purpose, no?
Until we get that little problem sorted out ... I'll remain that polite guy who goes about his business while keeping his own counsel on whether to carry a personal defensive sidearm.
 
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So I'll ask again...to those so opposed to doing any business that disallows firearms on their premises...can you carry/possess firearms at your place of employment?
 
BH73, state law here in Kentucky states that you may carry in your personal vehicle for protection while traveling to and from work. Your weapon must remain locked in your vehicle while you are at work.
Personally, I just ignore the signs. I've never been asked to leave any business because I was packing. If I were asked to leave, I would. If a business doesn't want my money because of my self defense choices, I probably don't need their services or products.
 
I could care less what business owners "wish". As was stated above, concealed means concealed. What are you doing to do if you dont know I have a weapon on me (legally as far as the state of KY is concerned)
 
Erik M said:
I feel your pain. I had to take my wife to a doctors appointment and the clinic we visited had a sign stating that concealed weapons were against the beliefs of the property owners. Anti's turn up in the most mundane places.
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Whenever I hear someone say they don't believe in guns I just say to them...

I don't believe in the Tooth Fairy, which of our decisions is based in reality?
 
Consuming alcohol on premise is prohibited in most liquor stores and quick marts. Do you just pop open a can and start drinking regardless of what is "allowed?"
Smoking is prohibited inside most businesses. Do you just light up regardless of what is allowed?

Don't misunderstand. If I'm not going through a metal detector, I'm probably carrying. I don't examine the doors and windows of businesses for signs before entering, but if I see one posted, I'll abide by their wishes/postings and take my business elsewhere. If I were asked to leave (for whatever reason) I'd comply whether or not there was a sign.

I'm amazed at the number of people who are adamant they would/will/do carry regardless, as concealed is concealed, the signs aren't legal, aren't worded properly, etc.
We are gun owners and carriers. We should set the example in being law-abiding. We are (supposedly) part of the most responsible group of people in society. We fight for and defend our right to own and carry firearms, yet some would deny a business owner, be it individual or corporate, the right to regulate what goes on in their place of business.
Even if we disagree with the policies set, we should abide by those policies, or take our business elsewhere, and let the owners know the reason.

Bottom line: The business owner(s) get to make the rules.
You respect my right to set those policies, and I'll respect your right to take your business elsewhere if you disagree with the policies I've set.
You're welcome to bring your gun, as long as you have lawful intentions. You're not welcome if you choose to light up a smoke, pop a top, or curse one of our employees. Violating one of those three gets you asked to leave, and I guarantee we will not be doing business with you.

That said, in our own business I and others will be armed. For the employees not owning a firearm, there's a revolver in the top desk drawer if it is needed.
 
Glad to see that I am not the only one seeing that trend Maggies. Thought maybe I was going coo coo or something. I was saying the exact same thing. I am all for carry and fully and completely stand behind it 100%. What I, as you, do not agree with is some of these folks THINKING that their right to carry takes precedence over my right to conduct business on MY property. Sorry folks but it doesn't. Not one bit. That Judge is 100% incorrect and I would LOVE to see him attempt that fight in court. NO ONE can tell me that I can or cannot allow carry on MY property be it a business or my home. That is 100% up to 3 people, Me, Myself, and I. Period. Like Mag and I both have said, It is the poor "Ill do it if I want to" attitude that gives us as gunowners a black eye.
 
I carry for my personal protection. That said, what if I was in your store, in line to purchase something, and some dude with purple hair, pulls out a gun and says " nobody move, this is a holdup " Wouldn't I feel kinda stupid leaving my gun in the car, just because you don't want it in your store ? My gun is for MY protection, not to make you feel good, by leaving it in the car. Its with me always, and I mean always. Because you never know when a scumbag will appear.
 
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...some of these folks THINKING that their right to carry takes precedence over my right to conduct business on MY property.
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I think most of us would be very upset and apologetic if our concealed personal sidearm somehow interfered with your right to conduct business.

Fortunately, as mine has never interfered with ANYONE's right -- or ability -- to conduct business on their property or in any other place, we wouldn't have any conflict at all.

That's a happy thought! :)
 
That Judge is 100% incorrect and I would LOVE to see him attempt that fight in court. NO ONE can tell me that I can or cannot allow carry on MY property be it a business or my home. That is 100% up to 3 people, Me, Myself, and I.
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I don't know if he is right or wrong. I suspect you would win your case, but not on legal points. Based on what .gov allows and doesn't allow business owners to do, if this were viewed in the same light I believe you would lose. These days we're all about collective rights. I'll bet more than a few home owners in Connecticut never believed their property would be handed over to private developers. Thanks to Souter, we know differently.
 
Businesses have lots of rules. Many are there as a formality and they don't necessarily want to have to enforce them or their staffs don't necessarily want to have to enforce them. The Summerlin Costco incident is one such example. They had a policy against guns in the store, apparently no posting (and no posting is required by law in NV), and nothing was ever done about it unless they actually saw a gun on somebody. In other words, those who concealed carry and were actually concealed never had a problem.
 
Maybe its a matter of respect of others rights.
If we are unwilling to respect the rights of others to control what goes into THEIR business, how can we be upset when someone doesn't want to respect OUR right to even own a firearm and/or carry it into places which do allow it?

Hmmm......
 
Maybe its a matter of respect of others rights.
If we are unwilling to respect the rights of others ... etcetera.
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Yes, we've had that discussion many times here on THR.org.

It seems to come down to a matter of weighting the importance of the rights one person has or perceives to belong to him, versus the rights he/she understands others to have or that he/she feels they should have.

Meaning that I respect your rights to do anything you want as long as your actions do not affect me, and I expect my rights to be respected so long as I do no harm to you.

Said in a more earthy way, "Your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose." :)

If someone wants to carry a gun in my store -- and I see it, know about it, and don't like it -- and/or it is causing a disruption of my business and activities because it is chasing off my customers -- I can refuse them entry or make them leave my store.

However, if it doesn't become common knowledge that the person is armed -- if neither I nor my customers are being in any way affected -- then I can't reasonably restrict that person's entry or continued presence. Unless I'm going to search every customer (with greater negative effects on my business) I don't have any practical way to do that.

Similarly, say I have strict moral standards and it is against my beliefs to be in the presence of certain items or materials that might impugn or damage my righteousness. I may restrict someone from drinking in my store -- or from pulling out an adult magazine and reading it in front of me and my customers. In fact, I can even post a sign on my door that says such items are prohibited. However, I can't actually enforce my desires on that front unless I'm going to search everyone to make sure they don't have a hip flask or a rolled-up "Playdude" magazine in their pocket.

Again, it comes down to the effect one's actions have on another. Not to some ephemeral concept of proximity to an object.

From the other person's point of view -- you have a right to ask that I not do things which affect you, but not to ask that I restrict my activities in matters that do not affect you, or that unreasonably do affect me.
 
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I just received an e-mail from Speedway. They are stating that they don't have an anti-concealed carry policy in their stores except in Ohio where they have to have a "D" liquor permit to sell alcholic beverages. State law it seems. I don't know about other stores in other states.

Nice e-mail from Linda ByTheWay.
 
>>>>Similarly, say I have strict moral standards and it is against my beliefs to be in the presence of certain items or materials that might impugn or damage my righteousness. I may restrict someone from drinking in my store -- or from pulling out an adult magazine and reading it in front of me and my customers. In fact, I can even post a sign on my door that says such items are prohibited. However, I can't actually enforce my desires on that front unless I'm going to search everyone to make sure they don't have a hip flask or a rolled-up "Playdude" magazine in their pocket.<<<<

I'm not talking about being able to enforce it. I understand keeping it concealed and no one knows.
I'm simply asking that as responsible gun owners and carriers, should we not respect the "requests" made by business owners who post their businesses.
After all, we are NOT required to patronize any particular business. We discriminate all the time in choosing which businesses. We discriminate based on location, price, convenience, quality, atmosphere, etc.
Some of us discriminate on postings against weapons as well, because it's the respectful thing to do.

This is another 45/9 subject. we'll never settle it ;)
 
Well Freedom fighter. I see you own a business and you feel that you can do anything you like in your own business.

Can you keep Blacks out if you chose too?
How about smoking, are you free to light up if you chose?

As soon as you open your business to the public at large then the Govt has some way to control parts of what you do.
 
I'm not talking about being able to enforce it. I understand keeping it concealed and no one knows.
I'm simply asking that as responsible gun owners and carriers, should we not respect the "requests" made by business owners who post their businesses.

...

Some of us discriminate on postings against weapons as well, because it's the respectful thing to do.
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Ahh, well. That's a personal choice that each person would have to make based on a number of criteria as regards each location they'd enter.

Personally, I don't see that something I do which is not known to another, and does not (and CANnot) affect another, can possibly be either respectful or disrespectful of that person. The gun that rides on my hip is unknown to the business owner and he will never derive any harm nor benefit from it (except in the direst circumstances in which his wishes are the very last of my concerns). It is wholly irrelevant to our interaction or our respectfulness toward each other.

Chances are there are multiple things he wishes I would do (vote for his favorite candidate, buy his products vs. those of his competitor, advertise his establishment to my friends, etc.) which I could do to be respectful of him and his wishes. And he'd derive actual tangible benefits from those activities. But no one claims that I'm not being respectful of him if I don't chose to do those things.

If things I do or don't do which could HELP him aren't matters of "respect", then whether I do or do not do something that has no effect on him whatsoever seems to be utterly inconsequential.

Can I just avoid his shop? Sure. Maybe. Sometimes. But then I'm inconveniencing myself and causing him direct financial harm. Maybe I'm willing to do that to make a "silent statement" against that policy. But maybe I know a thing or two about liability, insurance, corporate/company policies, and the law, and don't feel too personally compelled by the sign on the door.

This is another 45/9 subject. we'll never settle it
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Possibly, but I think even these kinds of debates can be logically distilled to basic cost/benefit questions. Even then, however, emotion, pride, tradition, etc. can still carry more weight for people than the most logical reasoning.

What I get a laugh out of is the frequent claim by some that such actions are "giving gun owners a bad name," or that "this is the sort of thing that hurts our rights," etc. When the entire discussion centers on concealed carrying of a personal defensive arm -- absent any knowledge by the store owner or anyone else -- such claims are absurd in the extreme. Heated, rhetorical window dressing to add inappropriate emotional weight to a weak argument. (Actually a kind of logical fallacy known as an "Appeal to Fear.")
 
SAM1911 - I hear these arguments all the time in NC. However in NC all he has to do is post that sign "conspicuously" (VERY vague), and it carries the weight of law. I have seen heard many here and more on other sites say that their right to carry is absolute. In fact what these people do is break the law and advocate others to do so.

Now I know this varies state by state as to sign requirements and such. But it seems to me as gun owners (I CCW ALL the time), we should respect the rights and rules of businesses to post their stores. That being said, I would not ever step foot into a store that posted. IMO, they are taking a stand on a political issue (which is never a good idea in business that deals with the general public), and I will not support a business that takes a stand against the 2A. We have a choice to go into their store or not. We can choose to disarm ourselves and go in or we can choose to go to their competitor who respects our right to self defense.

I say this in suburbia where I have infinite options for about any type of store you can think of. I would make special exemption for those who are a bit more rural where maybe that 1 store is the only one for a considerable distance. IMO, that is a special case that many of us are not subject to.

Just my .02, and yes I know it has been beat to death on THR and we are probably not going to change anyones mind on the matter.
 
SAM1911 - I hear these arguments all the time in NC. However in NC all he has to do is post that sign "conspicuously" (VERY vague), and it carries the weight of law. I have seen heard many here and more on other sites say that their right to carry is absolute. In fact what these people do is break the law and advocate others to do so.
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This should be very clear: We do not EVER advocate breaking any laws. If your state allows an establishment to post a legally binding sign, then the law takes the decision out of our hands.

But it seems to me as gun owners (I CCW ALL the time), we should respect the rights and rules of businesses to post their stores.
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I think I dealt with that pretty clearly in the post directly above. If you feel this is a "respect" issue, follow your heart. If not, follow the law.

That being said, I would not ever step foot into a store that posted. IMO, they are taking a stand on a political issue (which is never a good idea in business that deals with the general public), and I will not support a business that takes a stand against the 2A.
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Maybe they are, maybe they are fishing for an insurance rate benefit, or have swallowed some boilerplate policy guide provided by a business consulting firm and it is merely a CYA artifact with no political intent at all.

Maybe you can write some letters and get them to change it. Maybe they get hundreds of letters from dissatisfied customers on all sorts of issues and yours will occupy a treasured spot in the circular file with the rest.

Every business is different. Some are faceless corporate entities, some are Mom&Pop establishments that have to care what their customers think -- and which only enact policies that mean something important to them. Hard to make a blanket statement.

We have a choice to go into their store or not. We can choose to disarm ourselves and go in or we can choose to go to their competitor who respects our right to self defense.
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Again, maybe, maybe not. Everyone has some threshold for how much trouble they'll go to to make a point that no one will ever see. Maybe I have to drive twice as far to go to that competitor. (Maybe I will do that, maybe I won't.) Maybe I don't care at all what their political intents are and just want to go about my business. Without observing the specific instance, it is hard to say which I'd choose.

I say this in suburbia where I have infinite options for about any type of store you can think of. I would make special exemption for those who are a bit more rural where maybe that 1 store is the only one for a considerable distance. IMO, that is a special case that many of us are not subject to.
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Yup. Depends on where you are, what you're looking to buy, and a lot of other factors. Also, again, depends on whether you feel this is a political statement by the store, and whether you care. AND, on whether you feel that the store's property-ownership right to restrict confidential personal items possessed by it's customers is compelling upon you.

Again...follow your heart / follow the law.
 
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