cslinger
Member
If only there were some kind of aftermarket parts available for the 1911. If only..... 
Springfield 1911 milspec mistake
- Thread starter TheProf
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Could you elaborate more on the hammer down carry? Isn't that dangerous with one in the pipe? Isn't thumb cocking the hammer frowned upon? I'm new to 1911s.
rpenmanparker
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I can't speak to the general opinion, but I was taught by a long-time lawman, gun dealer, and occasional gunsmith that thumb cocking the hammer makes racking the slide much easier.
JTQ
Member
Yes, it is.
Slamfire has his own way of rolling, which is fine. He can feel free to do what he wants, for whatever reason, but most 1911 people will not follow his advice.
Ed Head demonstrating the 1911 draw stroke beginning at about the :30 mark
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BSA1
member
Somehow I think Slamfire does not have experience riding horses and certainly none with opening the flap on the holster, then drawing a loaded 1911 and thumb cocking with one hand while charging at the enemy. It simply is not easy to do and most certainly not practical.
Colt Single Action Revolvers were designed to be drawn and fired with one hand while on a running horse. Many modern shooters do not understand why the grip is shaped so that the muzzle of the gun rotates upwards when fired. When shot the way the gun is designed it places the hammer spur by the thumb for easy recocking.
The 1911 of course does not shift in the grip when held correctly. Likewise the 1911 can discharge if it is dropped with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. This causes me to ask why JMB would have designed the gun with this fault if it was designed to be carried hammer down on loaded chamber.
I did read Slamfire old posts on the subject and I do not read anything in the copy of the manual he posted that the 1911 was designed to be carried in Condition 2.
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The G.I. grip safety was designed at a time when nobody really cared if the grip safety chewed up recruit's hands and made them bleed (and they did). They were told to "suck it up" and "carry on" (and they did) You now know why the modern beavertail grip safety was invented. For civilians......... As far as the hammer goes - most people are completely shocked to learn that Browning did not "design" the 1911 to be carried Cond 1 (loaded, cocked and on safe) He actually carried his personal semi auto pistols with the hammer on half cock and then thumbed it to full cock on the draw. It's true - look it up. Remember, people had been doing that for many years with single action revolvers and nobody though it was "unsafe". But the fastest way to bring a 1911 into action is most definitely from Cond 1. But you must have very strict discipline regarding where the muzzle is and where your finger is. ALL OF THE TIME. If you can't do that then a 1911 is not the best choice for you. Of course today we have people shooting themselves with Glocks. ALL OF THE TIME..........
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bannockburn
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TheProf
I have done a number of drop-in fit beavertail grip safeties on quite a few different brands of 1911s and all of them worked perfectly and looked fine (had to polish a stainless steel grip safety so it would be a closer match to the gun's nickel finish). Also as Mizar wrote you can do a little careful beveling of the standard grip safety on the leading edges to give you less of a hard edge and a more comfortable feel overall. I did this with the grip safety on my TacSol .22 conversion.
I have done a number of drop-in fit beavertail grip safeties on quite a few different brands of 1911s and all of them worked perfectly and looked fine (had to polish a stainless steel grip safety so it would be a closer match to the gun's nickel finish). Also as Mizar wrote you can do a little careful beveling of the standard grip safety on the leading edges to give you less of a hard edge and a more comfortable feel overall. I did this with the grip safety on my TacSol .22 conversion.
mdThanatos
Member
Close to 10 years ago I was in your exact position. I hated that safety and it really became bothersome to shoot it after a few magazines. I would have an imprint of the tang in my hand for a few days after shooting. I sold it and have missed it ever since. If I were in the same situation today, I would pay the money to change the parts out instead of selling it.
This will take time to work on. It is always amazing to see just how much history the shooting community has forgotten, and has instead, manufactured a narrative to justify cocked and locked carry. And, forgotten the 1911 design design features which safely allow the pistol to be carried, round in the chamber, hammer down. And to beat on this a bit more, the memory of hammer down carry has been lost for so long, that the shooting community thinks that it is dangerous!. I am certain that the members of the 1911 selection board would have considered regularly carrying a 1911 cocked and locked, to be the height of folly. The pistol was designed to be made safe with one hand, but having that big hammer cocked continually, with a round in the chamber, would have been a practice that would have made anyone from that period uncomfortable.
Now the 1905 Colt 45 Automatic was a precursor to the 1911
And so was the Colt 1907 45 pistol,
Neither of them have a thumb safety. I need to work on some other things, but I would like the cocked and locked acolytes to comment on how they think these were supposed to be carried.
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JTQ
Member
I don't believe TheProf is looking for a history lesson. I think he's looking for the safest, most efficient way to carry the 1911 in 2019.
If you can find a professional trainer, especially one that focuses on carrying the 1911, that recommends Condition 2 carry as the safest and most efficient, that would be helpful to the discussion.
RecoilRob
Member
1911's have an inertial firing pin....meaning it's too short to reach the primer when the hammer is down. The energy to pop the primer comes from the pin being hit from the fully retracted position so the gun is perfectly safe to carry hammer down on a live round with regards to the hammer position. Cocked and locked on a Series 70 gun is no different regarding drop safety.
There IS the possibility of the gun discharging if dropped far enough onto the muzzle to impart sufficient velocity to the firing pin, but this normally doesn't cause a lot of problems because even in this event the muzzle is pointing into the ground/floor so the danger to shooter or bystanders minimized vs one that can fire with muzzle pointing upward. This drop firing thing was addressed by the Series 80 safety though I think people have maybe become a bit too worried about making guns that can never hurt anyone.
Regarding Member Slamfire's post: I am one who very much appreciates his insights and historical ramblings along with experience and willingness to share such with us. His mentioning the hammer down carry being used on horseback is something I was aware of (being old) and the wants and needs of cavalry troopers has largely been forgotten. He in NO way was suggesting that we should do such things today, merely offering the historical reference for our education. Thank you Sir!
JTQ
Member
JTQ
Member
Want to bet?He in NO way was suggesting that we should do such things today, merely offering the historical reference for our education. Thank you Sir!
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/1911-reliability-for-self-defense.845516/page-5
He is a Condition 2 proponent, which for his own personal use is perfectly fine. I simply try to point out to new folks, who are asking how to properly carry the 1911, Slamfire's opinion is outside the norm.
Are there folks that prefer to carry Condition 2? Yes.
Is there anybody that teaches the use of the 1911 for defensive purposes that recommends anything other than Condition 1? Maybe, but you're going to have to look long and hard to find one.
BSA1
member
The 1913 Manual that Slamfire posted a copy of on a previous thread is very poorly written. The author(s) mix checking the revolver cylinder in the same paragraph as the 1911. I reread it several times trying to figure out what it meant and other parts are equally confusing. It makes me wonder if the author(s) understood the differences between a revolver and the 1911 since;
a) military brass that write regulations sit behind a desk
b) with the 1911 being so recently adopted I wonder if they had even see a real one
In fact the manual that Slamfire posted a copy of says:
"In loading the revolver place five cartridges in the cylinder and let the hammer down on a empty chamber." (pg. 92)
Huh? WTH! That is the correct procedure for loading the 1873 Colt Single Action Revolver which had been long withdrawn from service and replaced by the double action revolver.
But following that regulation through does it make sense that the Army wanted revolvers carried hammer down on a empty chamber but was ok with the new fangled automatic to be carried with the hammer down on a loaded chamber?
I still say that opening the flap on the holster, holding the flap open while drawing the gun, then cocking the gun all with one hand while charging the enemy and controlling a horse at a full gallop was simply not practical and was too hard to do.
Since it was a new weapon it may have been that early on that enterprising Officers (2nd Lt.'s fresh out of West Point maybe
) tried it that way until they had enough accidental discharges, horses and troopers shot to convince them otherwise. And horses are more valuable than troopers and 2nd Lt.'s.
a) military brass that write regulations sit behind a desk
b) with the 1911 being so recently adopted I wonder if they had even see a real one
In fact the manual that Slamfire posted a copy of says:
"In loading the revolver place five cartridges in the cylinder and let the hammer down on a empty chamber." (pg. 92)
Huh? WTH! That is the correct procedure for loading the 1873 Colt Single Action Revolver which had been long withdrawn from service and replaced by the double action revolver.
But following that regulation through does it make sense that the Army wanted revolvers carried hammer down on a empty chamber but was ok with the new fangled automatic to be carried with the hammer down on a loaded chamber?
I still say that opening the flap on the holster, holding the flap open while drawing the gun, then cocking the gun all with one hand while charging the enemy and controlling a horse at a full gallop was simply not practical and was too hard to do.
Since it was a new weapon it may have been that early on that enterprising Officers (2nd Lt.'s fresh out of West Point maybe
) tried it that way until they had enough accidental discharges, horses and troopers shot to convince them otherwise. And horses are more valuable than troopers and 2nd Lt.'s.
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Don't sell it, try thinner grips or rubbers one. You will regret it later, once is is your stable doesn't need big room. Get some good mags and going on.
If you are still stumbling of the pistol forget about it and move to another poly like Springfield, MP or FN (which impressed at the gun show sadly the price was targeted for Saudi Kings).
If you are still stumbling of the pistol forget about it and move to another poly like Springfield, MP or FN (which impressed at the gun show sadly the price was targeted for Saudi Kings).
Mizar
Member
Do we really want to derail yet another thread with a meaningless condition 1 VS condition 2 debate?
JTQ
Member
A valid point, though it was the OP - TheProf - that asked about the safety concerns with Condition 2, so there is some validity to the thread drift.
However, it was Slamfire's out of the blue reference to Condition 2 (at post #2 no less), in a "a GI grip safety digs into the web of my hand" thread that probably prompted his question.
Ok. I'm keeping my mil spec. I was ready to sell it but I figured I may try one more time.
This time, i tried the "push pull" method of gripping the pistol. Thumbs forward. ..but really making sure that I had a strong grip and leaned into the gun.. applying forward force with the gun hand.
The end result: it greatly reduced any upward muzzle flip and there by reduced the grip safety prong from digging into my hand.
My next 1911 will have a beaver tail safety ...but for now this seems like a good compromise.
This time, i tried the "push pull" method of gripping the pistol. Thumbs forward. ..but really making sure that I had a strong grip and leaned into the gun.. applying forward force with the gun hand.
The end result: it greatly reduced any upward muzzle flip and there by reduced the grip safety prong from digging into my hand.
My next 1911 will have a beaver tail safety ...but for now this seems like a good compromise.
Amen, let's stick to the OP's question.
rskent
Member
I would love to see a photo.
Garandimal
member
The Springfield 1911-A1 "MilSpec" is... perfect.
Everything you need - nothin' you don't.
(And, yes, have lots of GLOCKs as well)
So, what is wrong w/ your hand or grip?
[EDIT]
Good for you.
GR
Everything you need - nothin' you don't.
(And, yes, have lots of GLOCKs as well)
So, what is wrong w/ your hand or grip?
[EDIT]
Good for you.
GR
I was using a thumb forward grip, but without the push pull effect. Normally this worked great without issues (using Glocks), but with the 1911 milspec, it allowed just enough muzzle flip (not much...but just enough) so that the grip safety prong would dig into the web of my hand.
But..with the use of the push pull grip method..and leaning into the pistol, combined with strong grip...I can eliminate 99 percent of muzzle flip.
But..with the use of the push pull grip method..and leaning into the pistol, combined with strong grip...I can eliminate 99 percent of muzzle flip.
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