Springfield Rant-2

[1911Tuner]

Well...Given all the flak that the other one generated, I started to skip this one...but I can't.

Same neighbor with the bum extractors knicoed on the door just before dark. Loaded Springer in hand with the hammer floppin' in the breeze.
Look of disgust on his face.

Seems he and his brother split a case of Sellier & Bellot and went up to
their uncle's place to burn off some frustrations with their pistols. On
the second box, the Loaded pistol gave up and quit. He finished out his
half oc the case with his Commander and his brother's NRM Colt.

Open'er up...Strut snapped in the middle...MIM strut. I replaced it with
the one that came out of my GI Mil-Spec and told him to order a Colt
strut Monday and bring it back.

This is the third one that I've seen break in a month...Two locally and one
from a THR member who I sent a strut to last week. It would seem that we've started to see a trend. Maybe the combination of the material, the
short, stronger-than-a-beartrap mainspring...and extended periods of Condition One are more than the poor strut can take.

Without generating another flamin' debate over profit margins the status quo in today's market...What are we to make of such things? I can buy a
real steel strut Colt strut for 3 dollars and change. Buying them in 10,000
piece lots would probably bring that down to a buck-fifty.

G'night all...

Tuner

 

[Barry in IN]

Well, I haven't read the first one yet. Haven't had the time- Ha!
But I'll probably side with you.

I got my first one in 1988, and it was OK. Well worth the money at the time, especially considering the competition (or lack of).

I've had a couple more from about 1994 onward.
I used to wonder about the "weaknessess of the 1911", you know, loose plunger tubes, goofy extractors and such. I wondered because I had not experienced any of that.

Then I got a couple more Springfields.
Now I know.

Really, I haven't had anything that I couldn't fix pretty quick, but it doesn't change the fact they needed fixing.

 

[sm]

All I gonna say is...I shot a

1928 Colt Detective Special,
Old M&P S&W K frame in .38 spl,
Remington Rand 1911 - original set up...USGI mags/ Colt mags ,
and nothing broke, snapped crackeled or popped.

Okay so the bluing is worn and they have character...picky...picky...picky

 

[Barry in IN]

Well, just read it.
Whattayaknow, extractors!
I just heard that somewhere.

I wanted to add an admission. After joining the SA attack, I felt a wave of hipocracy. I admit to getting my first Kimber recently after hearing all the MIM stories for the past few years.
I figure what the heck, if I have to replace the sear, hammer, disconnector, thumb safety, etc. I'm still money ahead of what it costs just to have the checkering done. Even if I don't like the way it's done.

Maybe I can trade that abonination, the full length guide rod, for some of the above-mentioned parts if I need them.

Oh, and it has the external extractor. I'm still not sure if I like the idea, but at least I didn't have to rework or replace it before I shot it.

1911 Tuner, what's your opinion on the external extractors? You've probably posted this a thousand times, but sorry, I don't need to get a new 1911 often, so haven't kept up.

 

[Wichaka]

I posted on the other 40 page thread that I replaced the strut before it broke. I stuck it in a vice and it didn't take as much as I thought it should to bend it. I replaced it with a Brown but its cast. Its all I had at the time. Have already ordered some steel struts.

I've dug into quite a few SA's lately and haven't been impressed with what I've found.
Alot of poor workmanship & poor quality parts............

This is the USA..............we're supposed to build quality stuff!

 

[Josey]

I can only say, I told you so. I was seeing the poor QC and bad parts, drilled off center frames and critical parts breakage two years ago. Remember my Springfield rants? I will not buy or suggest them to be bought. I support you Tuner. I have seen the same things.

 

[1911Tuner]

Weak 1911

Barry said:

I used to wonder about the "weaknessess of the 1911", you know, loose plunger tubes, goofy extractors and such.

Hi barry,

The 1911 isn't an inherently weak design. The "weakness" comes from
manufacturers cutting costs by skimping on good materials. While there are some parts that lend themselves to that practice, the high-stress parts aren't included in that group.

Struts, hammers. sears, disconnects, slidestops, and pins aren't very
forgiving of substandard materials...but the engineers know this.

I have a few 1911s that range from 60 to 90 years old. Many have the original or original for the era struts, extractors, plunger tubes, etc that
are still going.

I heard a story from a very reliable source...A company bigwig was asked
about the materials used in the manufacture of their extractors. The
response was that he didn't know, but if he(The poser of the question)
would point out which part the extractor was, he'd find out.

 

[c_yeager]

I think a lot of these problems are coming due more to a lack of quality control rather than the actual MIM process. I think that done RIGHT an MIM part could be made to pretty high streangth. I think the bottom line is that if Springfield cant make a pistol right using MIM that they probably couldnt do it using all forged steel either.

Of course i carry revolvers anyways

 

[1911Tuner]

Process

c_yeager said:

I think a lot of these problems are coming due more to a lack of quality control rather than the actual MIM process.

And that asessment is spot on. Really good MIM....basically powder metallurgy...is very good. Poor MIM is worse than bad. Since Springfield doesn't make its small parts in-house, they have no control over the quality
of their vendor-supplied parts. Moreover, while MIM parts are eminently
satisfactory for SOME applications...it's simply not a good choice for others.

What they do have a say in is holding the vendor accountable when the
parts aren't up to snuff. They discover these things via feedback and by
the frequency of warranty repairs that they do. So far, the extractor issue
of late has gone unaddressed by Springfield.
______________________________

And:

I think the bottom line is that if Springfield cant make a pistol right using MIM that they probably couldnt do it using all forged steel either.


That's an accurate statement only if the quality of the steel and the processing of that steel is substandard. You can make a sear out of 1018 and neglect to case-harden it...and it won't last as long as a batch of GI Garands at 50 bucks a copy. The trick is to use materials that are to spec in every way, and passing along the cost increase to the consumer. I don't have a problem paying for quality. I do have a problem paying for fluff and buff on a gun that's mostly show and little go. Better a no-frills sidearm that's there when you need it than a showpiece that draws admiring glances and OOOOHs/AHHHHs from the crowd, but stands a high chance of leaving you UTYAIA at a critical moment. There are those who are willing to
accept the risks...I'm not.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Tuner,

I work for one of the largest industrial corporations out there and having watched my management for a long time, I think I might have some insight.

This problem may be as simple as the front line supervisor who is watching these parts come in from procurement just isn't focused. Lets face it, he may have a sick parent, a teenager or even be getting a divorce. That tends to draw his focus away from the task at hand. These guys probably know the problem on the assembly line (or at least I would hope so) and I bet the supervisor would recognize the problem if he were shown it. What I have observed is things like quality control tend to be driven by the bottom and not the top. Then the control is up to the shift supervisor and his "focus" on the job at hand. I doubt the warantee department speaks much to assembly. Its just a nature break in the corporation.

Now all is not lost. Eventually, after a quarter or two, the warantee department will start costing the company enough money that someone will start looking into it and track it down. These problems take time in a big operation. The larger the corporation, the longer it will take to find the problem and fix it.

Look at your own company. You are the company right? You fix guns. You pick up a part and immediately know the problems. You see the warantee problems when they come back and immediately know the fix. So now, lets say you are working for a fortune top 10 company of 50,000 employees. How long will it take for the word from one employee of a problem to filter up to top and then down to the other side?


It takes a long time unless it involves serious money (lawsuit), death (hope not) or its something your competitor is doing better (usually).


Just an observation....

 

[Old Fuff]

Peter:

You have a point, but in terms of relative size these handgun manufacturers are relatively small. In the case of Springfield Armory and Colt, making 1911 style pistols is only part of a larger operation. Tuner is right about everything he says.

Prior to World War Two Colt proudly advertised that ALL of the components in their handguns were made in-house. Further, if you take one of these older guns apart you'll find little alphabetical letters and numbers stamped all over it - usually in hidden places. These are inspector's marks, and each one indicates that a particular inspection was done and the gun or part passed. More then that, the mark could be traced to a particular inspector who if necessary would be held accountable.

Today's manufacturers use outsourced parts, and in the case of some that includes major components like frames, slides and barrels. Sub-contractors are often picked on the basis of price alone, and more often then not parts are received and then moved into parts bins.

Failures are addressed by the customer service department, and usually consist of sending a customer new (and identical) part to replace the broken one. This presumes that the gun owner can replace, and if necessary fit or adjust the new part himself and/or have someone else do it. The potential problems with this policy should be obvious.

Tuner's experience tells me that S.A. must have received a shipment of sub-par hammer struts, and what Tuner is finding must be part of a far larger problem. Will they issue a recall? I doubt it. Unfortunately a gun owner has no way of knowing if his pistol is one of those effected or not, so the only good course is to replace the strut.

Back in the "good ol' days" we never had to worry about replacing parts in a new gun. Not so today. The times have changed.

One other thing. Only a few S.A. gun owners will read what goes on in this forum and be appropriately warned. Consequently the others will remain ignorant about these issues and problems. That’s the only reason S.A. can remain in the 1911 clone business.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I hear you but I still bet the supervisor of assembly and the supervisor of warantee rarely talk even at a small company. If they do, I bet its not about what is happening with the guns. Sort of professional courtesy not to badmouth anothers department until it is really obvious there is a problem.

It is my opinion that you all are right, they got some bad parts or sub-par parts and are using them up. A profitable company would look at the cost benefit of a recall and the warantee cost, take into account the number of users who will figure it out, and then decide if it makes financial sense to repair it.

A company that worries about its customers, would look at the problem, recognize the bad parts and then go on the warpath to notify everyone and try to fix as many of the bad parts as they can find. These type of agressive responses seem to go a long way in the public mind.

Just a thought to consider. I doubt Springfield is reading this though.

 

[Old Fuff]

Peter:

You may be right about the supervisors not discussing problems with each other, but in most companies I'm aware of a supervisor who didn't report something was amiss to his/her boss wouldn't be a supervisor very long. Comes under the heading of PYOA.

I believe that the company in question is aware of what's going on - and considers the situation to be acceptable. They believe that most customers will:

1. Fix a problem themselves, or have it done locally.

2. Be satisfied if the gun makers sends them a new part to replace the broken one.

3. Given the expense and hassle, won't return the gun except as a last resort.

When one looks at the corporate culture - often dictated by "bean-counters," combined with a relative lack of effective quality control and independent inspections, the outlook isn't encouraging.

Excluding multi-thousand dollar custom built guns (and not all of them) I consider any and all of the lower/middle priced 1911 pistols being made today are parts kits or "builders," not finished, ready-to-go products. Unfortunately the majority of buyers don't know this.

Tuner has done many of these gun owners a great service by explaining how to rebuild their guns to make them truly serviceable and reliable. But each time someone follows his advise the gun's maker is let off the hook.

They must love him.

 

[Barry in IN]

1911 Tuner, let me clarify here-When I said the part about wondering about the "weaknesses" of the 1911- what I meant was that any I had always worked fine, that's why it made me wonder "what weaknesses?".
Then I got an SA, and I saw where it came from.

Now that I've read the rest of Rant Number 1, some comments.

SA advertises their guns as being the choice of the FBI SWAT teams, etc, blah,blah,blah; I doubt they mean "we have guns available that work, but we have others too."
I think it's fair to think we should be able to get through a box of ammo without an extractor failure. They don't suggest other options if you want a functioning gun.
I'm thinking here of the $100 vs. $100,000 retaining wall analogy.

Another cost-cutting business rant-
I'm recently medically retired from an airline. I was a Lead Acft Mech. Around 1995, we started getting planes in for what was supposed to be a two to three day maintainence visit. It was the first of a series of "C-checks" that planes go through between overhauls. Since this was the first check since overhaul, it should've been an easy one.
As it turned out, the last time these planes went through overhaul, it was done by an outside (meaning cheaper) source. We found this out on day four of the two-day visit. That plane was in the hangar for 29 days. The next plane (also meant to be there two days) was there for 31 days.

Why?
The "cheaper" source may have been cheaper at the time, but due to the things they missed, messed up, or just plain didn't do; it snowballed. Corrosion that was probably minor at overhaul had spread. Sheet metal repairs were done wrong, and had to be re-done, or entire sections of skin replaced. We found rows of rivets they had installed that only went through the skin, and not into any structure- oops, missed. Lots of fuel and hydraulic leaks from improperly installed components.
What saved a day or two at overhaul and an unknown amount of money, ended up costing nearly a month of zero revenue generated (ouch), plus the cost of fixing everything.
The people who sent the planes to the outside source were long gone.

This is just an example of the change that started around that time in the way the airline was operated. Since then, the maintainance base I worked at has closed, sending approx 2,000 people out of work. There have been other layoffs company-wide of the same order.
The last I heard, they were trying to get a loan, and failed, from the gov't just to buy fuel.
Of course they blame Sept 11, but that was just another blow in addition to ones they had given to themselves.

How does this relate to SA's extractors?
It may seem cheaper now, but it won't be in the long run.
SA sells abunch of guns NOW, but the percentage of return customers will take a hit. At least among owners who actually shoot their guns.
I don't have any figures to prove it, but I would think a good chunk, if not the majority of new gun buyers are multiple gun owners. I used to spend a lot of time in a gunshop (I had to stop halfway home and rest my bad back don'tcha know) and it sure looked like the majority of buyers were "regulars".

They can ask Colt how it works to establish a reputation, screw it up, try to fix it, and see how long it takes to get buyers back.

"Gun people" are usually traditionalists. If there is a small design change, we wring our hands over it for years. We have long memories. If I get a bad Chevrolet, big deal, it happens. If I get a bad ABC Gun Company gun, I won't touch one for years.

Then there is the "when somebody gets killed" argument.
That's so big, I'm not sure where to start.
Suffice to say, IF a bad extractor can be proven to result in death in a self-defense situation, I'd think that would be near-impossible to recover from.
I would think it would be very difficult to prove, however.

 

[DHart]

Wichaka said "This is the USA, we're supposed to build quality stuff."

Just so you know, ALL of Springfields mil-spec guns are manufactured AND assembled in Brasil, then imported by Springfield to be sold. I was told this by telephone call to SA a month ago. Regarding their other pistols, all or much of the parts are manufactured in Brasil and then are partially assembled there or here.

It's really unfortunate that so many people are clammoring to the SA line because they think they're USA products and are priced so low. Most of them have no idea at all that the parts are often of quite inferior quality and/or that all of some of the pistols are foreign, not USA.

By the time you buy a less expensive Springfield and then replace the parts with quality parts, you might as well have bought a Colt - or spent more and bought a Baer, STI, etc. With the Colt there are very few parts you might wish to replace. So many people are so focused on paying a lower initial purchase price (thinking that Colt charges "too much"...) that they fail to realize that for the lower purchase price they're getting a gun of significantly lower quality. Sheesh.... isn't it worth an additional $75 or $100 to know that you're getting good quality parts in your 1911? All this stuff about hammer struts snapping, thumb safeties snapping, extractors failing, etc. is absolutely absurd. And there are so many people running around defending the choice to buy Springfields and Kimbers which are full of questionable parts... acting as though their decision to buy such a piece is supported by the fact that nothing has broken "yet". Amazing.

 

[Rob96]

Well said DHart.

 

[1911Tuner]

re: General Stuff

Howdy all...Sorry that I've been offline most of the day. A forum member came in to visit from Tennessee and we did a range run and a little tweakin'
on his guns. Had a blast too...Got his loaded Springer to stop with the
hammer follow thing.

DHart...You've touched on the one point that I've made over and over.
Upgrade the guns with good small parts...Pass the cost on to us...We'll
buy the guns.

Fuff...No doubt that you're right in that when I tell folks how to fix their own guns...or invite'em over and fix'em myself...that I'm lettin' the
(name your favorite brand) off the hook....but if it saves a life, I'm
happy to do it...and that's one of the main reasons that I do this.
Plus, I get to meet lotsa good folks and shoot some of their ammo.

Peter...I completely understand the corporate problem of the left hand
not knowin' what the right hand is doin'...I used to work for a major company. Now I don't. I don't make money fixing guns either. It's all
pro bono. These rants were done in hopes that somebody from Springfield
WILL see it and report to his superiors. I don't have a thing against Springfield, nor do I own stock in any of its competitors' companies.
I do it BECAUSE Springfield has the potential to market a solid, affordable
pistol,and I want to see it happen. Colt too...and the others as well.
if they see that we know about the problems, maybe they'll quit trying
to fool all the people all the time and get with the program. I also believe
that they're well aware of the things that I've written about here.

They CAN upgrade the GI Mil-Spec and produce a durable, reliable pistol
and sell it for a no-frills price. Colt is almost there, and they sell thousands
of pistols in the 500-550 dollar range. Springfield's GI almost clones are
selling as fast as they can make'em. They'll still sell for 500 dollars if word
gets out that they've made'em better by getting away from substandard small parts. They may sell even more. This MIM issue is getting to be widely known.

Cheers all!

Tuner

 

[Wichaka]

What I meant by the USA thing, was that the company is American born, they produce an American product (1911), it needs to be American quality!

I know the frames and such are made in Brazil, which makes no difference to me. Other countries can make good parts. The whole thing boils down to this, SA oversees the wholes process, their name is on the product.........therefore they are responsible for the quality being put out. Same for Colt or anyone else. Even though some parts are farmed out to be made, those companies (Colt etc) still sign their name to it.

I can't see solid steel being that much more expensive. Say the Mil-Spec, GI, & Loaded models went to an all steel gun. I doubt the price would top over 900.00 for any of them.

Like its been said before...........build them for quality...........buyers will come.........

There's too emphasis on the bells & whistles (i.e. SA Loaded) and not enough attention by the maker on quality first.........fancy second.

Its funny, I've got people on the other 1911 forums scrambling for my take off parts. Now I'm able to buy the good replacement parts, and won't have to add alot of my own money to do it............go figure..........

Lack of knowledge is dangerous..........

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I can certainly see you guy's points. I like springfield a lot! Particularly the old P9 series and the M1A's. My concern is that they will go the way of Colt if they are not careful.

Lets face it, reputation is a lot of what a company has. Springfield has a good reputation "today". They may not tomorrow if they keep this up. I can certainly see how it happens, but they need to becareful.

Oh well, back to cruise mode on the forums...

 

[Old Fuff]

Tuner:

>> Fuff...No doubt that you're right in that when I tell folks how to fix their own guns...or invite'em over and fix'em myself...that I'm lettin' the (name your favorite brand) off the hook....but if it saves a life, I'm happy to do it...and that's one of the main reasons that I do this. Plus, I get to meet lotsa good folks and shoot some of their ammo. <<

I have absolutely no objection to you're doing what you are, and I'll support you all the way. My problem is that I'm too lazy to write the long posts over and over ... :banghead:

No, what I'm saying is that the companies benefit greatly, because in helping others you pull their iron out of the fire. If they follow you’re advice and upgrade the pistols, fine. But right now they're getting a free ride they don't deserve. Yes, I too have fixed many an officer's gun (and others too) without charging a penny. What tick’s me off is companies that are so busy making money they don't care about lives.

We see the person with the busted gun. They have a face, a name - they are living, breathing human beings. The companies insolate themselves from those who buy the product. To them they are nothing but numbers on a sales chart.

Maybe that's the trouble.

 

[1911Tuner]

re: Fuff

Fuff said:

human beings. The companies insolate themselves from those who buy the product. To them they are nothing but numbers on a sales chart.

Maybe that's the trouble

Yepperz...and I do what I gotta do. It goes deep. The Good Book
says that I see a stumbling block in my brother's path, and I fail to remove it...that when he trips I'm just as guilty as if I had put it there myself.

Besides...ummm...never mind. That's a whole 'nother thread that I'll never
post on.

Onward brother...Onward!

 

[R.H. Lee]

I'm inclined to go off in a Naderesque anti corporate rant, so I won't.

To summarize (since Springfield isn't going to do anything about the problems), the parts that should be replaced are:

Extractor
Sear
Disconnector
Slide Stop
Hammer Strut
Hammer?

Anything else? Can real steel replacements for all these be found at Brownell's? Does it matter if I replace stainless parts with blued parts?

 

[1911Tuner]

Anything Else?

Riley asked:

Anything else? Can real steel replacements for all these be found at Brownell's? Does it matter if I replace stainless parts with blued parts?

Might not be a nad idea to replace the mag catch too. I haven't had
one of the near-steel parts to fail, but I've heard of a few. Ed Brown
has'em...or so it's claimed to be machined steel...though the standard length parts aren't listed in Brownells. I've always replaced the suspect ones with USGI catches...but I'm down to just one now. Thumb safeties too. Though I haven't seen one of those break from Colt or Springfield,
I've seen one Kimber safety break, and heard of a few from other sources.

You can order'em off Brown's website for about 20 bucks, but your cheapest source for the Thumb safeties and mag catches are from
good old Norinco. John Marstar is the distributor...Just be sure to specify
genuine Norinco parts.

Yes, you can use blued parts in a stainless gun. It actually makes for a
nice contrast.

Luck!

Tuner

 

[Old Fuff]

I think in one of his "Springer" threads Tuner listed the parts, part numbers, and source. Most everything can be obtained from Brownells, but in some cases he suggested you go to the manufacturer of the particular part. There is no objection in replacing stainless with carbon steel, other then it may rust easier. On the other hand it is likely to be harder and wear longer. Be aware that a lot of stainless parts are investment cast rather then machined from bar stock. This isn't necessarily bad, but it's something you should check out.

 

[Wichaka]

I don't see a steel hammer strut in Brownell's catalog. I've got a couple Ed Browns, but they're cast. Guess I'll have to call Colt. Which hammer stuts from Colt are solid steel?
Hopefully they'll tell me.