Tuner's Springfield Rant & Colt

[DHart]

Rattling is a non-issue these days

I've seen some really old Colts that rattled quite noticibly, but were as reliable as the sun. But in the two dozen or so current production Colts I've handled and fired, NONE exhibited much of a rattle, but were sensibly sung without being tight nor loose.

So to those of you who are new to this and considering a new Colt... you can dispell any concerns about tightness or looseness with the current production Colts... they won't have any problems with being overly tight nor rattling. There are some folks who like to throw this topic up as a significant issue regarding Colts and in my opinion (owning about 15 Colt 1911's among a number of other brands) it's not.

 

[Drjones]

So to those of you who are new to this and considering a new Colt... you can dispell any concerns about tightness or looseness with the current production Colts... they won't have any problems with being overly tight nor rattling. There are some folks who like to throw this topic up as a significant issue regarding Colts and in my opinion (owning about 15 Colt 1911's among a number of other brands) it's not.

Well I just purchased a NRM Ser. 80 Colt, courtesy of WildAlaska.

I fondled it and so did my FFL who shoots IPSC/IDPA and we both agreed it was a fine specimen; as you described; sensibly snug without being tight nor loose is a fine way of describing my new Pony.

I will post a report when I recieve my Stainless Horsey from WA as well.

 

[1911Tuner]

Rattle-Bang 2

Yep, Dhart,

The GI Springer that I picked up is tight as a tick. I had to
slurry the gritty parkerizing off the rails with the magic goop...
but it's still rattle-free and I'm willin' to bet dollars to donut holes
that it won't miss a lick in 2,000 rounds without cleanin' or oilin'...
I betcha.

 

[Drjones]

'Tuner: What is "slurry" and the process of "slurrying"?


Thanks!

Drdoesntknowanyfancylatinjones

 

[farscott]

As Wyatt Earp taught us, a sidearm should swing like a bludgeon, not like a mace.

I am not sure that the use of a handgun as an impact weapon is relevant to slide/frame fit and rail design. People hit over the head with 1911's tend to react much the same way as those hit with Model P's. And the pistols both work as bullet launching platforms after being used as impact weapons.

As far as the need for full length rails in a Browning tilt-barrel design, the Glock design would suggest that there is no need. The rails of the Glock are extremely short compared to the 1911 and the SIG P210; however, the Glock sacrifices nothing in functionality to either pistol.

Usually the tight fit in a 1911 is criticized because there is a perception that a tightly fitted pistol will not function when dirty. I believe that the slide/frame fit has very little to do with reliability in the 1911. I have seen tightly fitted guns covered in mud function, and I have seen loose fitted guns covered in mud choke. I have also seen the inverse. The mud viscosity and mass are probably larger variables than slide/frame fit.

 

[Michael Zeleny]

I have a few pistols that don't exhibit any rattle or looseness at all, yet never miss a beat.

I enjoy pistols like that. Without meaning to gainsay your superior experience, this condition seems to be exceptional for the M1911 design, even as it is the rule for the Neuhausen P210.

Pace et Concordia?

Sweetness and light.

 

[Michael Zeleny]

As far as the need for full length rails in a Browning tilt-barrel design, the Glock design would suggest that there is no need.

Assuming equal barrel to slide lockup, mechanical accuracy of a Browning design is covariant with the arctangent of the ratio of the slide rails clearance to their length. While practical accuracy as guided by sight alignment may well exceed the parameters of mechanical accuracy through superior barrel lockup in battery, other factors being equal, longer slide rails go hand in hand with better accuracy for the same slide to frame clearances.

 

[1911Tuner]

Enjoyable Pistols

Michael said:

I enjoy pistols like that. Without meaning to gainsay your superior experience, this condition seems to be exceptional for the M1911 design...
__________________

Not really. It's true of a pistol that's not"right"...but there was a time that it was commonplace for a factory-built 1911. The reliability issues with
dirty match-tuned pistols seems to be more a function of the barrel fit
than the slde to frame fit. When the slide to frame tolerances are closely held, there isn't much room for dirt to get in, and if they are square and parallel, they'll feel like buttered glass.

Tight fit at the hood, bushing and in the lugs is a different story. Plenty of opportunity there with carbon fouling and such...plus the heated barrel
expands and closes up the barrel to bushing clearance...

As another poster noted...A rattle trap slide to frame fit and a tightly fitted barrel will hang up when things get dirty, just like a tight slide to frame fit and an ordnance barrel fit won't. I've seen it go both ways.

 

[JNewell]

Yeah, well, while we're carping in Latin, what I remember from Latin was ave atque vale

 

[Michael Zeleny]

The reliability issues with dirty match-tuned pistols seems to be more a function of the barrel fit than the slde to frame fit.

Maybe so, but to the extent slide to frame clearances are required for reliable function, longer rails will conduce to better mechanical accuracy.

Tight fit at the hood, bushing and in the lugs is a different story. Plenty of opportunity there with carbon fouling and such...plus the heated barrel expands and closes up the barrel to bushing clearance...

While dirty powder will foul the breech end of any pistol, in my experience with the bushingless, tightly fitted P210, neither muzzle end carbon fouling nor thermal expansion factor in its function in 50-round rapid fire strings. I am buying more magazines to push the envelope further.

 

[ryoushi]

My New Milspec

Kudos to Tuner and Fuff for celebrating rat guns. It's great to not have to be rich or on some gun guru's 2 year waithing list to own a cool piece. A great deal right now if you can find one is a Milspec with a serial number that begins with an NM prefix. These are a limited run of pistols that were completely machined and assembled at the American Springfield plant from Brazilian forged frames and slides. They feature a one piece SS barrell and a SS bushing and you won't find the word Brazil anywhere on the pistol. Mine also has the new grip profile woo hoo!!. Fit and finish is great for a utility gun. Best part is they are being sold for the same price as any other SA Milspec I picked mine up for $499.00. Sure I'll eventually replace a few parts like the side stop, thumb safety trigger, sear and hammer. Maybe some Heinie sights? That's why I bought it to have some fun and tinker with.

A series 70 Colt would be great but why do they charge so much more for them? They have less parts than the newer models. It's all moot for me as the Series 70s aren't even offered for sale in the PRK .:banghead:

 

[Rob96]

A series 70 Colt would be great but why do they charge so much more for them?

Because Colt is not selling them or producing them in numbers for the gun buying public. They are pretty much for the Colt collectors. Me,,,,,I am satisfied with my to Series 80 pistolas.

 

[farscott]

Assuming equal barrel to slide lockup, mechanical accuracy of a Browning design is covariant with the arctangent of the ratio of the slide rails clearance to their length.

Now you have changed the subject of the argument. In the above posts, the discussion revolved around reliability, not theoretical mechanical accuracy as per this:

It remains that their reliability tends to go hand in hand with looseness, unlike the case of the Neuhausen design.

While the SIG P210 may exhibit better mechanical, and even practical, accuracy, the 1911 design is accurate enough to meet the requirements of its original application. It is also much less expensive to manufacture and sell. And SIG P210's also have failed to function when covered with mud.

The mechanical accuracy provided by the rails may be immaterial in actual shooting since the sights are attached to the slide which is firmly locked to the barrel in a Browning tilt-barrel design. Since people shooting for accuracy use the sights, the variation in slide to frame positioning that the Ransom rest exposes are not really relevant to shooting.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

What farscott said...

Actually, I was gonna just drop the discussion since it was startin'
to go off on an arc tangent...and I was kinda tryin' to keep it on a cotangent.

ACTUALLY...The slide to frame fit on a 1911 contributes very little to
intrinsic accuracy...maybe 5% of the potential. I've seen some fairly sloppy
guns shoot some wicked groups in the hands of a good marksman.

Outta here! There's no convincin' a man once his mind's made up.

Cheers all!

Tuner