Stag vs RRA (Warning, very detailed question..)

[Zapawaf]

Hi, sorry if this has been posted a thousand times. For the most part all the arguements between the two have been about what brand offers a lack of this or that. Before you give advice, I have done a lot of research, I went from not knowing much, to knowing a bunch (I'd be the last to say I know it all hahaha, always room for more knowledge), learned about twists, barrel types, car vs mid, flash hiders, chrome bolts, feed ramps, yada yada the list goes on, so when I tell you what I'm looking for, there are reasons behind it.
Well here is exactly what I'm looking for:

AR15 CAR (not mid, personal preference)
16" Chrome Lined Barrel 1:7 twist (maybe even 8, but 7 prefered)
2 Stage Trigger

Those are the must haves, but I would also like:
*Vortex Flash Hider
*Chrome Bolt Carrier Group
*BCM Gunfighter Charging Handle

*I love the RRA Quad Rail but YHM offers some nice onces, and the model 3 Stag's rails aren't bad either. Reguardless something along those lines are a must. I love the rails on my M4 beside my cot right now, but I hate the cuts/vents (whatever you want to call them) because they are circular and a pain to clean, where as I believe the styles on the RRA, YHM Spectre or on the Stag Model 3 would be more prefered.

*Must have Fixed FSP (wether its mounted on a rail or is the A2 style)
*Prefer standard safety selector (not star)

So the dilemma being
RRA offers all these as customizable upgrades but doesn't offer the 1:7 twist, thus if I went this route Id had to replace the barrel (and flash hider if I wanted to put it on the aftermarket barrel.. which aftermarket barrels chrome lined seems hard to find)
Stag offers the 1:7 and the Chrome Lined, but not the chrome bolt and has standard Flash Hider (which I might just decide not to get if it becomes to much $, and the BCM charging handle isn't needed)


Side note, I do plan to hunt with it (which is legal in the state of NH which I live) thus wanting the 1:7 twist for heavier rounds.

Also, I'd want a rifle scope, would the FSP get in the way? I'm used to my CCO on my M4 which it isn't a big deal because all it does is add a red dot on top of the iron sights. Lastly, EOTECH is Halographic, never used it, is FSP an issue with these? How well do these work compared to Red Dot, looks like a bigger crosshair which I'm not huge on but again, never tried

 

[MyOpinion]

Zapawaf

Before you give advice, I have done a lot of research,

This will not get good responses. Must need more research.


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Stag+vs+RRA




p

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

yup right, too much info. have been around both, only own the RRA, one helluva firearm.

 

[mdThanatos]

Some mount setups will interfere with the FSP, others wont. It will depend on how its mounted, i.e. what type of mount and/or what type of rings. I would worry less about the scope and mount setup and focus on the rifle configuration. Would you be against piecing together your rifle?

Most of these seem to be related to the upper receiver assembly, with the exception of the 2 stage trigger. If you were to piece the rifle together it would take a little more time but you will be able to get your exact setup without compromise.

 

[kamagong]

If those are your choices, go with the Stag. The BCG and the CH are dead simple to change out. You take them out anyway everytime you have to clean or oil your AR. With regards to the Vortex, as long as the stock FH isn't pinned or welded, it's much easier to change out than a barrel is. Cheaper too. The Vortex is ~ $50, a good barrel is at least a couple hundred.

 

[Txhillbilly]

Any specific reason for wanting a 1-7 twist?
I've never understood why people want to shoot 77gr or bigger out of the AR platform,and turn a perfectly good semi auto weapon into a single shot rifle.

I have a 1-8 twist RRA varminter,and shoot 75gr Amax all day at magazine length,but if I want to shoot 77-80gr match bullets the OAL is too long for magazine length.

The heaviest .224 hunting bullet that I know of is the 70gr Speer SP,and the 65gr Sierra Game King.Both of them shoot great out of my 1-8 RRA 20" Varminter as well as my 1-9 Savage 26" Model 12.

The chrome lined barrel is also a little less accurate than a stainless match grade barrel,IMO.

 

[Canuck-IL]

Sierra/Nosler/Berger/etc. match 77s are mag length bullets, 80s and 82s (and 90s for that matter) are single load.

Hornady AMAX design (plastic tip) are single load in both 75 and 80 grains.

1:8 is fine for anything it seems the OP wants it to do.
/Bryan

 

[kwelz]

Why either? For the money you will spend on either of those there are MUCH better options.

 

[TonyAngel]

Yeah, for the price of an RRA, you could get into a BCM or Spike's. If I had to choose between the two that you mentioned, I'd probably go with which ever was cheaper.

In any case, most can and will be satisfied with a 1:9 twist barrel. It will accommodate most bullets up to 69gr in weight. That post above regarding the 75gr A-Max is an error. The 75gr A-Max, if loaded to spec, will not fit into a magazine. The poster must be loading them really short. The Sierra and Nosler 77s can be loaded to mag length. If you want to shoot the heavies, a faster twist (1:7) is what you should get.

The question of why anyone would want to shoot heavy weights out of an AR is easily answered. They shoot farther and are less affected by the wind.

 

[wingman]

I just cannot see a reason for the 1-7 twist in a civilian carbine, I believe the military used it for tracer rounds, however the 1-9 will do the trick for most ammo available to average Joe citizen. i think the idea of mil-spec can be carried to extreme.

 

[benEzra]

Stag offers the 1:7 and the Chrome Lined, but not the chrome bolt and has standard Flash Hider (which I might just decide not to get if it becomes to much $, and the BCM charging handle isn't needed)

The flash suppressor isn't hard to remove, and the Vortex is one of the easiest of all flash suppressors to install (no bushings/crush washers needed, just snug it up and you're good to go since it's self-tightening). The charging handle and BCG are a cinch to change later; just pick up one any time after buying the rifle and swap it in; you can buy the rifle now and upgrade to the handle and BCG you want later.

I have a Vortex and a Gunfighter CH on my RRA middy and really like both features.

I agree thought that you might also want to consider a BCM if you can find one in the same price range. If you do get a Stag or RRA, make sure the gas key screws and castle nut are properly staked (my RRA required staking).

 

[kwelz]

I just cannot see a reason for the 1-7 twist in a civilian carbine, I believe the military used it for tracer rounds, however the 1-9 will do the trick for most ammo available to average Joe citizen. i think the idea of mil-spec can be carried to extreme

Just because you don't see the reason doesn't mean it isn't there.

while some say that 69 grain bullets are ok in a 1/9 twist barrel I have found them to be marginal at best. And if you want to shoot 75 grain bullets then you are SOL.

My chosen round is 75Gr TAP. And I have never seen a 1/9 barrel that handles it well.

 

[SentinelStrategic]

The big thing to consider is that, given your preferences and desired options, you should be building your rifle. If you want someone to build a custom rifle for you, I can recommend a rifle builder that we use for LE agencies, and they will build a rifle any way you want with anything you want. They do all of the machining and milling of the custom parts in house.
Otherwise, slap together a bunch of stuff. There are lots of YouTube videos on how to do it. They're like Legos for adults.

 

[Zapawaf]

Any specific reason for wanting a 1-7 twist?
I've never understood why people want to shoot 77gr or bigger out of the AR platform,and turn a perfectly good semi auto weapon into a single shot rifle.

I have a 1-8 twist RRA varminter,and shoot 75gr Amax all day at magazine length,but if I want to shoot 77-80gr match bullets the OAL is too long for magazine length.

The heaviest .224 hunting bullet that I know of is the 70gr Speer SP,and the 65gr Sierra Game King.Both of them shoot great out of my 1-8 RRA 20" Varminter as well as my 1-9 Savage 26" Model 12.

The chrome lined barrel is also a little less accurate than a stainless match grade barrel,IMO.

TxHillBilly,
Yes the reason I want the 1:7 is because I plan to hunt, which from what I've heard I'd want a 1:7 twist to handle the heavier rounds. 1:8 would handle 75gn fine from what I've found, which is why I say 1:7 or even 1:8. 1:8 seems to be less common then the 1:7 so I was just going with that.

Also, you are right, CL barrels are "less accurate" then stainless barrels, but stainless isn't great for cold temps. I hunt in the snow. Plus most SS barrels don't come painted from what I've seen, I'd rather my barrel not shine. The accuracy is a minor loss (not like my rounds will be sparatic) and the barrel strength will be a minor gain. Personal preference is all.

 

[Zapawaf]

The flash suppressor isn't hard to remove, and the Vortex is one of the easiest of all flash suppressors to install (no bushings/crush washers needed, just snug it up and you're good to go since it's self-tightening). The charging handle and BCG are a cinch to change later; just pick up one any time after buying the rifle and swap it in; you can buy the rifle now and upgrade to the handle and BCG you want later.

I have a Vortex and a Gunfighter CH on my RRA middy and really like both features.

I agree thought that you might also want to consider a BCM if you can find one in the same price range. If you do get a Stag or RRA, make sure the gas key screws and castle nut are properly staked (my RRA required staking).

What do you mean, require staking?

 

[mdThanatos]

Staking locks the gas key screws in place as well as the castle nut. This prevents them from backing out and causing failure, its a deforming of the metal surrounding the screws causing them to "hug" them.

Have you considered a Chrome-moly barrel that is nitride coated or something like S&W offers with their Melonite coated barrels? Some say they aren't as durable as a CL barrel but they can be a little more accurate. Its like a middle ground between CL and SS.

If you are dead set on the RRA vs the Stag then I would go with the Stag since it would be easier and probably cheaper to swap the FH, BCG and CH versus changing the barrel out.

 

[ugaarguy]

I want to shoot 77-80gr match bullets the OAL is too long for magazine length.

What kind of out of spec mags are you using? I have several rounds of Black Hills 77gr OTM sitting a Magpul Pmag right now, and they have no problem feeding from USGI mags either. Of course, it's commercially packaged MK262 Mod 1 ammo, which was designed to feed in USGI mags - www.dtic.mil/ndia/2003smallarms/bux.ppt , http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/hist_mk262.html.

The heaviest .224 hunting bullet that I know of is the 70gr Speer SP,and the 65gr Sierra Game King.

Swift makes a 75 gr. Scirocco II bonded in .224 Diameter - http://www.swiftbullets.com/scirocco/rifle-bullets/224-caliber.html

I just cannot see a reason for the 1-7 twist in a civilian carbine, I believe the military used it for tracer rounds, however the 1-9 will do the trick for most ammo available to average Joe citizen. i think the idea of mil-spec can be carried to extreme

See above. 1:9 twist is a jack of all trades, and master of none. If you wanna shoot 40 gr to 55 gr projectiles a 1:12 twist is great, and will give you longer bbl. life. If you want to shoot 55 gr and heavier go ahead and get a 1:7 so you can reliably run 75 gr and heavier across the widest range of temps / altitudes / relative humidity percentages.

 

[bri]

For the price range you're at, you should consider BCM, Spikes and DD as well...

 

[madcratebuilder]

Build your own in 6.5g or 6.8 and hang a Vortex Viper on it.

 

[wingman]

Just because you don't see the reason doesn't mean it isn't there.

Correct, but it doesn't make it right or smart, if you need a heavier bullet move up to a 6.8, 243 or other, the 223 was never intended for hunting other then small game, the 5.56 was designed around the 55gr. Yep, it's there but it like trying to use an SUV as a pickup truck. If you wish to use above a 69gr think different caliber, no one tool is good at all jobs.

 

[ugaarguy]

Correct, but it doesn't make it right or smart, if you need a heavier bullet move up to a 6.8, 243 or other, the 223 was never intended for hunting other then small game, the 5.56 was designed around the 55gr. Yep, it's there but it like trying to use an SUV as a pickup truck. If you wish to use above a 69gr think different caliber, no one tool is good at all jobs.

You know the 30-06 was designed around a 150 gr projectile. After WWI the Army wanted better long range performance, so they stepped up to a 174 gr projectile - M1 Ball. Then they dropped back down to a 150 gr projectile at a higher velocity - M2 Ball.

You'd better write all those ammo companies that load 30-06 with 220 gr projectiles, and tell them to stop. Anyone who needs 220s in an '06 clearly needs a .300 Win Mag.

Then there's the 7.62 NATO that was developed around a 147 gr bullet. You need to get on that one PRONTO, because all branches of the US Military are using 7.62 NATO ammo loaded with 168 gr Sierra MatchKings. They should reissue 30-06 chambered rifles, because they're using the 7.62 NATO for something it was never intended to do. They MUST be wrong and stupid!

 

[rscalzo]

but if I want to shoot 77-80gr match bullets the OAL is too long for magazine length

While then 80 grain loads are too long to load to magazine length, the 77 grain loads are not and are used by thousands of Service Rifle shooters, myself included.

It is also the standard Mk262 load produced by Black Hill for military Special Purpose rifles.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

I'd just get a BCM upper and whatever lower floats your boat. It'll probably be cheaper than a complete RRA or Stag rifle and you'll get what you want.

Lastly, EOTECH is Halographic, never used it, is FSP an issue with these? How well do these work compared to Red Dot, looks like a bigger crosshair which I'm not huge on but again, never tried

FSP isn't an issue with them. Mounted directly on a flattop upper the EOtech cowitnesses with your irons, or you can get a riser and have a lower 1/3 cowitness. The EOtech's I've used have a 1 MOA dot and a 60 MOA circle which is more precise IMO than the 4MOA dot of things like an aimpoint. Use the circle for up close, the dot for further out. Very fast optic.

 

[benEzra]

What do you mean, require staking?

The gas key screws and castle nut are supposed to be held in place by deforming the metal into the screws/nut (which is called staking), locking the screw or nut firmly in place. This is important because if those parts work loose over time, they can cause serious failures at the most inopportune times. On a rifle that's solely intended as a range toy, that may not be a big deal, but if reliability is a serious consideration then staking is important.

On my Rock River, the gas key screws were very lightly staked and the castle nut wasn't staked at all (they apparently just used blue Loctite, which can relax when it gets hot). A LE armorer on M4carbine.net graciously torqued and restaked my gas key screws for me and I did the castle nut myself, but there's no reason it couldn't have been done properly from the factory. BCM, Colt, Noveske, Daniel Defense, etc. tend to do a better job on those details, which is one reason why they often cost a bit more.

Added on edit: Here are some pics to explain.

Gas key screw staking: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6993

Castle nut staking: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6994

The gas key serves to channel gas from the gas tube to the piston inside the bolt carrier. It is subjected to high pressures and a lot of vibration, and if those screws back out then the gas leaks into the receiver instead of cycling the action and exiting via the vent ports like it's supposed to. The castle nut holds the receiver extension (the tube that supports the buttstock and holds the recoil buffer and recoil spring) to the receiver. Proper staking ensures that the parts cannot gradually loosen under stress; they can still be removed with well-fitting tools, but they'll stay put otherwise. My RRA had very "cosmetic" staking on the gas key that didn't actually pin the screws in place, and the castle nut wasn't staked at all. A proper staking job takes a significant amount of metal from the sides and squishes it firmly into the sides of the screw heads.

Lastly, EOTECH is Halographic, never used it, is FSP an issue with these? How well do these work compared to Red Dot, looks like a bigger crosshair which I'm not huge on but again, never tried

A fixed front sight is absolutely not an issue with an Eotech. I have mine set up for what is known as a lower-1/3 cowitness (the dot lines up with the iron sights if you drop your line of sight to the lower third of the glass, but if you keep your head up the dot and circle are above the front sight post). The Eotech is both very fast and about as precise as an unmagnified optic can get.

 

[FlyinBryan]

My chosen round is 75Gr TAP. And I have never seen a 1/9 barrel that handles it well.

do you practice with those?

ive got some hornady 75g bthp that ive been loading up to try in a 16" 1/9 just for kicks. it is basically the same bullet as the "tap", minus the cannelure cut.

i expect key holes here and there, but i might can sort it out playing with seating depths, and velocities. it would be cool if i could get them to work on a consistent basis.

do you see very big poa/poi variations @ extended ranges between 55g and the 75g stuff?