strike 4 with a barnes tsx

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

There is something that no one has seemed to realize here folks. Being an avid archery hunter has taught me one thing for sure. A heart hit deer will NOT leave a blood trail worth a damn until the chest cavity fills up to the entrance and exit holes. This is the main reason I always go for a lung shot with a bow.

Now, if Lloyd hit that deer where he believes, that would have been a heart shot. If the bullet performed as I think it did, it didn't expand because it didn't hit enough bone to mushroom it. 2 little .25cal holes are not going to leave a blood trail from gravitational drips and it would leave little to no sign whatsoever at the shot site because it didn't expand.

To further explain this point, simple biology is needed here. You hit the heart, and there is no blood pressure to "pump" a blood trail out. You hit the lungs or artery, the heart creates a "spray" for a trail.

This is a good example of too tough of a bullet for the game in question. You want to always use a bullet that will penetrate well and cause maximum damage on the way through no matter if you hit shoulder bone or not. I am a firm believer in "if it aint broke, don't fix it". Standard cup and core bullets have been dropping deer for many many years now and the bullet manufacturers keep trying to re-invent the damn wheel. The hippies are crying "lead poisoning" and they are so full of crap it's damn near funny. I can see it as being a SLIGHT problem in water foul hunting because very few pellets hit the target and the rest go wherever, and of course you have a lot of them that are hit but not killed that go off to suffer death from lead poisoning MAYBE, but to try to take lead out of all ammo is friggin stupid to put it mildly.

 

[hardluk1]

I have zero experience with a 80gr 25 cal barnes but enought time with a 140gr 7mm and 150gr 30cal barnes to know it expands just fine in flesh only and is not designed to need bone to expand. It just happens to hold together way better than standard old school design bullets.And as another bow hunter I do get blood out of the heart shoot. I shot from a elevated stand and can watch a trail of pumped blood. I know a girl back in florida that use's a 243 85gr barnes ammo and they work fine for here from head shot hogs to heart shot deer. Stuff just happens sometimes. The 25 cal Might not have hit the deer ,might have been a deflected bullet and hit nothing vital just and the deer ran a long way. Never know at this point. I have followed nosler patitions 7mm mag shot deer ,well shot too. heart/ lung damage and still ran darn near 600 yards. Just ran way to far for what ever darn reason before fall over died. If it was not in a clear cut we would never have found it. Hunt long enough and ever thing that can go wrong will go wrong.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

.And as another bow hunter I do get blood out of the heart shoot. I shot from a elevated stand and can watch a trail of pumped blood.

You didn't "take out" the heart then if you saw PUMPED blood. Elevated stand also meant downward arrow travel so the exit was more than likely low chest? so you will get pretty quick gravity bleeds from them anyway. More than likely you hit the "spaghettie" on top of the heart or just one ventricle. With a bullet strike you will completely stop heart function. With a broad-head the only shock value is the cutting. No real kinetic energy is transferred.

 

[ZeroJunk]

I have killed and tracked a lot of deer and helped track a lot more than that that others have killed. I can tell you that two bullets exactly the same, hitting at what appers to be the same place, and at the same angle can produce very different results. None of these bullets produce perfect results every time.

 

[Todd1700]

I am a firm believer in "if it aint broke, don't fix it". Standard cup and core bullets have been dropping deer for many many years now and the bullet manufacturers keep trying to re-invent the damn wheel.

Ditto

 

[Loosedhorse]

what killed the deer was pieces of bone shattered off the shoulder. the gut pile looked like it had been hit by fine shot either bone did it or tiny pieces of copper or possibly both

So we are supposing these bone fragments lacerated an artery somewhere? Because a deer that "looks like" it's been gutshot with fine shot, I'd expect that deer to travel more than 100 yards.

My theroy is that it hit that shoulder bone maybe at an odd angle

I think you might be right. Is this then a problem of shot selection rather than bullet selection?

Bottom line is anyone that knows me will attest that im a brutely honest guy.

I hope I wrote nothing to suggest you're dishonest. If I did, I retract that and apologize--no such insult was intended.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I agree that Barnes X products may not be the best choice for deer hunting. When hunting a soft critter like a deer I prefer something that is a bit more frangible. However that being what it is I'll just say this about Barnes X and TSX bullets. Having killed multiple hundreds of head of game with them from Coyotes to elephants including quite a few deer. I've only ever had one situation where I had questionable bullet performance. That was on a Pronghorn with a .300 WM. I think the bullet may have encountered some yucca on the way to the buck. So I put that in the questionable category. If you need an expanding bullet that reliably penetrates heavy hide and bone the TSX or the TTSX is a hard one to beat. Of course if you are after heavy boned thicker skined critters you probably won't be shooting a pip squeak caliber either. You really don't need them on a softy like a deer. For deer go with a something like an Accubond that retains weight penetrates and is a bit more violent and slows down in flesh faster. Heck for deer Sierra Game Kings are a great choice but if want them to penetrate don't push them too fast and use a heavy for caliber bullet.


I've never had a TSX fail to open. I've seen them blow all of the petals off before but they do massive damage in the process then travel through as a flat nosed solid. I've also never used a TSX in anything smaller than .308 diameter. The one that blew the petals off was out of a .300 Wthby and was a 165 doing like 3400 FPS on a big bull elk. Killed him with one shot BTW.

One more thing I'd like to add. You can not pass a hole through a heart or lungs and not kill something. Take a sharpened dowel rod in .308 or .277 diameter stick it under your armpit and push it through your heart and lungs until it pokes out the other side. Let me know how it turns out.

With that in mind the only possible theory is that the heart and lungs were not hit or possibly just one lung was hit. If a bullet doesn't do massive damage to that lung it might be a survivable injury.

One thing I have heard of but have never actually seen is an X type bullet that they can only partially opens like one petal or only the petals on one side open causing the bullet to do a dramatic direction change shortly after impact. This generally is reported to happen if the bullet encounters an obstruction on the way to the target causing nose damage. Which what I THINK happened on my pronghorn incident.

Bottom line is if you aren't happy with Barnes bullets don't use them. There are WAY to many fine choices out there for you to have to use something you aren't happy with.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

yes its hard to make a call on that 300 wby shot. Only thing ill say is even if it was an odd angle it hit the deer at i would have expected more penetration. The 180 .30 cal barnes should be able to tackle ANY big game and penetrate. I would have never guessed a 100 lb whitetail would stop it no matter what. But like was said shoot enough deer and youll see strange things. I never tried that combo again, mostly because its a bit much of deer hunting an i just wanted to kill one deer before putting it away. Bottom line h&h hunter is i did use them wasnt happy and wont use them again. After seeing what i consider 4 failures im just not comfortable shooting them at live animals. There is better bullets for the job and ill stick with them.

 

[castingdonkey]

I don't know what the mystery is. It seems like the deer was shot on one side and in the confusion somebody thought it was shot on the other. A 180gr Barnes tsx in 30 cal at the velocities mentioned will more than likely be an easy kill on two deer lined lined up. The possibillity of this round not going all the way through a white tail. or for that matter making "a huge entry wound". Anyone can say what they want but I wasn't born yesterday. I can say this, that round is more than adequate for a through and through shot on an elk at 200. Can someone please tell us what the energy left in that round is at 200 I think it will cause some scoffing. I hope this thread stays open long enough for colorado's first rifle to end so that I can post some barnes real world performance.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

and your kids wont get lead poisoning

 

[castingdonkey]

Unless I end up using the 10mm on the bull. Depends on How close I get as to how much lead my kids are gonna eat?

 

[TommyD45]

I have never hunted deer with anything as small as an 80 grain bullet, so I can't comment as to its suitability.

Last year I harvested two deer with the 168 grain Barnes tipped triple shocks going about 2400 fps from my Encore pistol. One shot each at 117 yards. Both crumpled on the spot with a behind the shoulder shot. Full penetration with no bullet recovered. From examining the wounds, I do believe that the bullets expanded just like they were supposed to. This year they finally legalized rifle hunting in my county I will use the same load in my bolt action rifle.

Wound pictures can be seen at:
http://homepage.mac.com/paradigm1/p/hunt2010/csi2010.html

Tom

 

[langenc]

Frank-are you 'youth' hunting or ???

What season is open in MI UP?? Down here we have to wait till Nov 15th w/ some minor exceptions.

Maybe you were hunting in another state?

 

[Lloyd Smale]

season is the same in the UP. the deer ive been shooting are crop damage deer at a potato farm.

 

[gamestalker]

I feel like I'm pushing it with 120 gr bullets. I wouldn't want to tackle a big game animal with an 80 grainer.

 

[TwoWheelFiend]

Stop wounding things and use an appropriate caliber.


thanks

 

[castingdonkey]

Gamerstalker, Have you had an issue with not killing game? 120gr seems like a perfect size for deer.

 

[rori]

Barnes X type bullets are designed to open immediately on hitting flesh and open up 4 petals that cut their way thru the target. They are great bullets and not the problem here!!!!!! I do a lot of my hunting and killing with a longbow and 2 blade broadheads and never count on blood to find my kill. If you need blood you need to learn to track!!!! Although I don't like the 80gr for deer I would have killed quite easily IF the deer was hit as described. Frank

 

[xphunter]

Personally, I am not a fan of the Barnes bullets.
Thanks for posting about your experiences.
I have heard good and bad about the Barnes bullets, more bad than good.
Things happen that we cannot explain or understand at times.
Main thing is, if you don't have confidence in a component or product, don't take it out to hunt with.
I don't fault testing. It is the only way you will know how it performs for you.

 

[castingdonkey]

I was close to quite a few nice bulls this year, I had to pass on them. I was trophy hunting and didn't want to kill a future trophy for my area. I will do a cow hunt next week hopefully and get some good pics of what a .277 130gr tsx does to an elk.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

all kinds of experts here one who doesnt believe a 2506 or a 257 or 300 wby is appropriate for whitetail and an indian tracker who doesnt need a blood trail to follow a deer through the swamp. Im a bow hunter too and if your shoot deer with a bow and not getting a blood trail you need to start shooting them in the right place. Ive yet to loose a deer shot with a bow. WHY? because when properly hit they allways leave a blood trail that a child could follow.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Naaaa Lloyd, There are some 2 blade broad heads that leave pretty pitiful blood trails. I double lunged a fat doe one year with a Magnus without the little "bleeder" blades and damned if that deer did not leave a drop of blood the whole 40 yards she ran. It happens.

rori, you obviously do not know where Lloyd is hunting (once he told me where I know the location) and I'll make a bet with you any day of the week. I'm well over 250 pounds and I'd bet you my last dollar I could go into that swamp and you would not be able to follow my track more than 20 yards. Before you blow smoke, know a little about what you are talking about there fella. White-tail deer are damn hard to track in the swamps. And if there is no blood trail, you are pretty much screwed. You would have to pattern search or get a dog. Period.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

freedom fighter you couldnt be anymore then right. I would about bet my last dollar i could walk him a 1/4 mile into without a compass and would be going back in the spring to find his body! were not talking little pocket swamps here. The sears swamp that borders our land goes is over 300 square miles of swamp so thick you dont walk through it you crawl. Spots where you can actually see a deer track are runways so beat down by deer that no one could tell which track was which after about 20 feet. By the way and believe it or not this isnt meant to be sarcastic but why would anyone use a 2 bladed broadhead on deer. I could see if you were hunting cape buffalo or elephants with a bow but the only advantage i see to them is they do penetrate a bit better but not a whole lot better then a cut on impact 3 blade and the 3 blade broadheads fly better and kill better.

 

[ZeroJunk]

Sort of begs the question, if you are hunting an area where you absolutely need to bust a deer's butt right there why would you be shooting an 80 grain small caliber bullet.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

because from what i read the 80 grain barnes 25 cals were suppose to do just that. Deck deer. Its not like i was using a varmit bullet by a long shot. those 80s are a big game bullet at least they are according to barnes.