strike 4 with a barnes tsx

[suzukisam]

shurshot-

I hope you enjoy that load, I believe I'm loading 43.0 gr hybrid 100v behind and 85gr tsx. out of my savage or my dpms, I'm getting single hole 100 yd groups. at 200 I'm getting about an inch. my cousin did a number on a large body 8 pointer saturday morning. he put his head against the ground and ran 70 yds.. the heart looked about like the one above in the pics.. at about 30 yrds he was dragging his rack and finally slid into home plate!

 

[ZeroJunk]

What is the difference between the TSX and the original X from 25 years ago or whenever ?

 

[Lloyd Smale]

No doubt some have had great success with the tsx bullets and i dont doubt there word for a second. I do kind of get a charge out of some guys that take it personal like im badmouthing a bullet they made themselves or there wife or children. I also know that 3 or 4 experiences dont make a written in stone evaluation of a bullet but i would have kept quiet if i would have at least had one good experience with them. Who knows maybe if i stuck with them the next 20 deer might drop in there tracks. But bottom line is that they did fail for me and ill never again have faith in them and i just cant see buying them for two or three times the money a standard bullet cost that has let me down. I started this post to share my experience and to see if others had simular experiences (which apparently they have) and to maybe save a few people the disapointment ive had with them. So far ive been called a lier a poor hunter a poor shot and a poor handloader and an unknowlegable gun owner. All because a bullet didnt perform like it should. I sure would hate to see what happened if i bad mouthed your brand of truck!! Funny thing to me is that about half those negaitive post came from people that havent even shot anything with them or from guys who maybe have shot a half a dozen deer in there lives. Oh well thats the internet i guess. I sure didnt loose any sleep over it. i was more looking for posts like H&Hhunter and 35whelens to see how they were working for others but instead got more key board commandos then guys with actual experience. Oh well such is life

 

[Lloyd Smale]

[QUOTEWhat is the difference between the TSX and the original X from 25 years ago or whenever ? ][/QUOTE]

The big differnce in my opinion is barnes owned up to the fact that the first generation bullets werent reliable.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Who cares about "scientific testing?"

I don't. All the gelatin tests in the world are supposed to estimate what will happen in the real world. If you've got real world occurrences, why would you prefer gelatin? (True: I would prefer a less random gathering of data. In the real world, succesful bullet use tends to get trumpeted by hunting guides and manufacturers, and poor bullet performance by internet posters. So, not a great database.)

I first learned about TSXs before my first Africa trip. The PHs suggested .338 or even .375, but said .30s and even .270s would do "but if you bring that make sure you only use Barnes TSX." That caught my attention.

It's a penetrator; that usually means delayed opening, maybe no opening at low-enough speed. (And low bullet weight will cause lower speed at target for long shots.) So, maybe ideal for big animals at ranges that allow for good bullet velocity at target. Not the best for smaller animals way out there.

Not sure, but it could also be that the smallest calibers (like .25, under discussion) behave differently than .30 and above (perhaps because of HP cavity size).

There may be other factors in Lloyd's "bullet failures," but they've been discussed. And, for sure, that science textbook line was great!

 

[H&Hhunter]

[QUOTEWhat is the difference between the TSX and the original X from 25 years ago or whenever ? ]

The big differnce in my opinion is barnes owned up to the fact that the first generation bullets werent reliable.[/QUOTE]


Uhmm actually that^^^ is subject to some factual modification.

There are significant differences between the Barnes X and the TSX. The main issue with the older Barnes bullets was that they copper fouled your bore really bad.

The TSX is not nearly as bad in regards to bore fouling due to the fact that a TSX is a modified bore rider bullet IE the shank of the bullets is under caliber and the bullet actually rides down the bore on the bands that have been machined into the bullet. Which reduces the surface contact on the bullet and greatly reduces fouling issues, and chamber pressure.

The TSX also has a different nose cavity configuration. The nose is staged and scored so that it opens up much faster than an old Barnes X. The very tip of a TSX is paper thin and it tappers and gets thicker towards the shank. the scoring at the tip is in place to ensure violent expansion at contact and of course the bullets tappers so that it will retain maximum weight for penetration.

What the TSX lost to the original Barnes was B.C. the TSX is a less slippery configuration that original Barnes X.

I've also killed hunderds of head of game with old original Barnes X Including feral hogs primarily and deer, elk, antelope, coyotes, wildebeest, springbok, kudu, blessbok, warthogs, zebra,cape buffalo, elephant and other assorted sundry African and American critters. I've never had any issues with them opening up either.

What I did find with the original Barnes is that they simply would not shoot well not of some rifles. I have personally never seen a rifle that would shoot the dog snot out a TSX. Well I take that back I did see one but it was a .270 WSM that hadn't been cleaned in about 500 rounds. After a serious cleaning session and a major copper ****** in the bore it magically started shooting very tight groups again.

Now am I saying the TSX is a perfect bullet that is 100% fail safe? Of course not nothing is. I've seen some spectacular failures in just about every make and model of bullet out there. I've seen a Accubond out of a .338 RUM come completely uncorked and blow to tiny little bits after only about 4 inches of penetration. I saw a 165 gr Corelokt out of a .308 win blow itself inside out on a feral hogs shoulder and stop cold in ther meat never even breaking a bone. A couple of cowboys roped that hog three days later and cut his throat with a knife we dug the failed Corelokt out later that day.I've seen all kinds of failures in bullets over the years and the reason I know they were failures is that we pulled them out of dead animals. Most had been killed with a a second or third shot or found later which is why I can conclusively say that such and such bullet failed in such and such way as I have it in my hands and am looking at it. The ones that got away due to bullet failure remain the questionable category because you don't really know where you hit the animal until he's on the ground.

I can't tell you how many claimed perfect shot I've tracked over the years only to find that that "Perfect right behind the shoulder when it broke" shot wasn't even close to being perfect or anywhere near the shoulder. Me and my dogs dogs tracked a scant blood trail on a hog for two days on one of those deals that turned out that the perfect shoulder shot was actually through the top of the nose just forward of the eyes. he kept dribbling blood and we finally put him down after nearly 48 hours. When the dogs can't catch something that's bleeding something is not right!

So while the Barnes is not a perfect bullet none are, what the Barnes TSX is, is a very very reliable tough bullet. And probably not the perfect choice for really light thin skinned stuff like deer. I really like the Accubond on big deer. They act very much like a non nose deforming Nosler Partition. And yes I've seen one fail. So what, for the most part they are fantastic!

 

[7mmstalker]

My main hunting partner during the 90's in AK was a firm believer in 225original X bullets for his 338WM. That worked fine for me. Im a devotee of 7mm rifles and lead core slugs.
We always wanted a rifle in our group that could deal with a brown bear, so our favorites suited the needs of the situation well.
A couple of times, I brought 338, loaded with 250gr partitions, and he brought his '06 or 7mm.
The X bullet was good for peace of mind, but it did travel through caribou, mt. goat, and even a cow moose, not doing alot of damage/expansion. However, all of thes critters did lay down and die, though it always required more shooting and / or patience.

 

[wankerjake]

So far ive been called a lier a poor hunter a poor shot and a poor handloader and an unknowlegable gun owner. All because a bullet didnt perform like it should. I sure would hate to see what happened if i bad mouthed your brand of truck!! Funny thing to me is that about half those negaitive post came from people that havent even shot anything with them or from guys who maybe have shot a half a dozen deer in there lives. Oh well thats the internet i guess. I sure didnt loose any sleep over it.

That's the internet for you! I used to get really bent out of shape too, until I realized half of the people that will argue with you have very little experience. Now I can usually let it roll off my shoulders.

I hope you didn't mistake my post though, I do not think you are a bad shot or bad hunter. I think just think without any bullets recovered, it's hard to say that all of them were failures or all good shots.

 

[castingdonkey]

Lloyd, All I really want to know is when I can come down and help out with the deer problem.

 

[suzukisam]

The big differnce in my opinion is barnes owned up to the fact that the first generation bullets werent reliable.

Uhmm actually that^^^ is subject to some factual modification.

There are significant differences between the Barnes X and the TSX. The main issue with the older Barnes bullets was that they copper fouled your bore really bad. [/QUOTE]

actually your both partially incorrect the issue was that without the relief cuts in the bullets they were very susceptible to over pressure. because copper weighs less than lead people tend to think that a copper bullet in a given weight range is an exact replacement for their favorite conventional bullet. but being lighter the bullets tend to be larger, creating more bearing surface and more chamber pressure..

 

[castingdonkey]

Sounds like all 3 of you have some valid points. I bet Barnes could add a few to the list of reasons. Like a different angle on the boat tail and so on.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

castingdonkey you could have helped me tonight. I shot a big doe with the crossbow. Even had a little tracking snow. Didnt need it though as the blood trail was one a blind child could have followed.

 

[castingdonkey]

That sounds like a ton of fun. I don't try to throw sticks at deer anymore, after two escaping mortally wounded I am over it. But a crossbow might be the hot ticket.

 

[35 Whelen]

I don't always agree with 35 Whelen, but he is one of the few people on this site that backs up his opinions with pictures of dead animals.

Thank you wanderjake...sometimes we have to agree to disagree. I know sometimes I come across too strong, but anything I post here is based on my experience, unless I state otherwise as in when I make an edgucated opinion. And sometimes I do get a little impatient with relatively young, inexperienced hunters basing their opinions on a computer program or what they saw in a magazine ad, but I'm working on it.

The only experience I have with TSX bullets is that which I have already stated. I've fired the TSX in my personal 35 Whelen and a couple of my Dad's 338-06's. In my experience they shoot very well:


Do they shoot his well all the time? No. A couple of weeks ago I sighted in my Whelen for our elk hunt and it was shooting about 3/4". Plenty good for game about the size of a Harley-Davidson. When I began working up loads for the Whelen with the TSX it rarely shot over one inch. I helped Dad try a few loads in a couple of his 338-06's and they grouped in the 1" range.

.33 caliber TSX's are the smallest caliber bullets I've shot. As someone who's handloaded for around 30 years, I long ago found loads that work in my rifles for game smaller than elk and they're usually cup and core bullets with the exception of loads for my .280 which happens to love Partitions. Other than Partitions in the .280, I personally have found that good ol' cup and core bullets work fine for deer, hogs and the like. But I have no quarrel with anyone who uses a 50¢ bullet for deer, hogs, anteope, etc.

I have very little experience with the original X bullet but they were an entirely different story. I tried them, ad nauseum, in my Remington Classic 220 Swift and almost without exception, there'd be two shots very close together and one slung way out. Got tired of that and gave up, never firing one at game.
35W

 

[H&Hhunter]

actually your both partially incorrect the issue was that without the relief cuts in the bullets they were very susceptible to over pressure. because copper weighs less than lead people tend to think that a copper bullet in a given weight range is an exact replacement for their favorite conventional bullet. but being lighter the bullets tend to be larger, creating more bearing surface and more chamber pressure..

Suzukisam,

Huh???

Here was my reply from above and I pretty much as in totally addressed that.

The TSX is not nearly as bad in regards to bore fouling due to the fact that a TSX is a modified bore rider bullet IE the shank of the bullets is under caliber and the bullet actually rides down the bore on the bands that have been machined into the bullet.Which reduces the surface contact on the bullet and greatly reduces fouling issues, and chamber pressure.

 

[castingdonkey]

This is not magazine photo and I don't get all my info from this here computer. I sure as hell don't need a mid sized cartride to hunt elk either. This bull was shot once in the heart with a 130gr Barnes MRX. Wasn't by chance and I didn't need some internet daddy to coach to the kill. I have plenty of hunting experience and read "Books" or ask one of the old school hunters in my area if I have questions. I too get to acting like a jerk and I apologize if I am being a little impatient with a relatively old hunter who knows it all and feels the need to talk down to the up and coming net nerd hunter.

 

[35 Whelen]

This is not magazine photo and I don't get all my info from this here computer. I sure as hell don't need a mid sized cartride to hunt elk either. This bull was shot once in the heart with a 130gr Barnes MRX. Wasn't by chance and I didn't need some internet daddy to coach to the kill. I have plenty of hunting experience and read "Books" or ask one of the old school hunters in my area if I have questions. I too get to acting like a jerk and I apologize if I am being a little impatient with a relatively old hunter who knows it all and feels the need to talk down to the up and coming net nerd hunter.

Nice bull! But you need to lighten up a little. My comments certainly weren't directed at YOU and I certainly didn't realize I was giving YOU alone advice. Like I said a bit ago, I just relate my experiences; it's up to you whether or not you listen. My life goes on unchanged regardless of your decision.

As far as your comment regarding my choice of cartridges, my first bull was killed with the homely 7x57mm firing a handloaded and equally homely 154 gr. (pre-Interlock) Hornady. So, I don't "need" a medium size cartridge; I want it. I was interested in the Whelen prior to Remington's commercialization of the round in '87. I like(d) it because it was/is under-utilized, not very popular, and most of all wasn't a (yawn) belted magnum. It's worked on elk so well for me, that I have no intention of using anything else.

And finally, at 48, I don't really think of myself as an old hunter....old school, absolutely; low magnification scopes, non-magnum cartridges, plaid instead of camo, wool instead of Thinsulate, etc.

35W

 

[H&Hhunter]

And finally, at 48, I don't really think of myself as an old hunter

I hate to break it to you partner but you are over the hill, probably have seen your last elk season and I'm sure have to wear Depends in the saddle.

It's so sad to see an old man unable to come to grips with his condition!

Now if'n you were in your mid forties like me you'd have a few season left in you. But at 48; It's all over but for the service and the funeral procession.

 

[35 Whelen]

I hate to break it to you partner but you are over the hill, probably have seen your last elk season and I'm sure have to wear Depends in the saddle.

It's so sad to see an old man unable to come to grips with his condition!

Now if'n you were in your mid forties like me you'd have a few season left in you. But at 48; It's all over but for the service and the funeral procession.

That's HILARIOUS to me! Why? Because every year when Dad and I go elk hunting, he says something to the effect of "Well...this will probably be my last year, I'm getting too old, can't keep my feet warm, etc." This is the 7th year he's said that.

We just got back late Tuesday night and at age 77 he/we rode about 24-25 miles in the saddle at altitudes ranging from 9800 to almost 11,000'. Every year starting about late August he brings throngs of rifles and handloads to my house to test and shoot and I expect he'll be rarin' to go again next October!

35W

 

[castingdonkey]

Well I apologize then 35w I sometimes have a nack for reading things the wrong way. I too have an interest in the medium cartidges. I haven't purchased one yet due to lack of research and other projects, but working around a lot of hunters every year. Seems most of them are walking around with a .338 and sometimes bigger rifle that they are afraid of and can't shoot well past 200 yards anyway. I wish people would stop telling others that they need some monster cartridge to kill an animal that get's just as dead with a .308.

 

[35 Whelen]

Well I apologize then 35w I sometimes have a nack for reading things the wrong way. I too have an interest in the medium cartidges. I haven't purchased one yet due to lack of research and other projects, but working around a lot of hunters every year. Seems most of them are walking around with a .338 and sometimes bigger rifle that they are afraid of and can't shoot well past 200 yards anyway. I wish people would stop telling others that they need some monster cartridge to kill an animal that get's just as dead with a .308.

Apology accepted, superb post, and I couldn't agree with you more about hunters and the magnums they carry but are afraid of!

Regards,
35W

 

[H&Hhunter]

That's HILARIOUS to me! Why? Because every year when Dad and I go elk hunting, he says something to the effect of "Well...this will probably be my last year, I'm getting too old, can't keep my feet warm, etc." This is the 7th year he's said that

Yep I've got a couple of buddies who are on their "last season" for the tenth year or some such!

One of whom can still walk most men in their twenties into the dirt in any terrain at any altitude and he's in his mid 70's!

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

I hate to break it to you partner but you are over the hill, probably have seen your last elk season and I'm sure have to wear Depends in the saddle.

It's so sad to see an old man unable to come to grips with his condition!

Now if'n you were in your mid forties like me you'd have a few season left in you. But at 48; It's all over but for the service and the funeral procession

You pups need to hush up about us old farts now dad burnit! My damn knees make more squeaking noises than a rusty old chevy! I have to check me shorts after farting (just in case my depends didn't work), Im blind in one eye and caint see out the other, and im getting so damn fat my damned horses run for the hills when they see me coming with a saddle! So you pups just hush up now or I'll have to beat ya with my cane!

 

[ZeroJunk]

About 25 years ago when I was in my early 30's a hunted with a grizzled old character who was 80. He had been an outfitter in Alaska. He could get around the mountains better than most of the couch potatos we were hunting with. I walk three miles a day every day and have been for years. You can't hunt the mountains if you can't get around.

I use a 280 AI most of the time. But, I have hunted with the 300 Magnums. With those you have to position yourself for the recoil which is just something else to have to think about. Shooting a 300 WBY prone or in the odd situation where you need to make a left handed shot is not my cup of tea.

Having said that a 35 Whelen in a Remington pump was the single nastiest kicking rifle I think I ever shot. So, it's hard for me to understand being down on a belt and shooting a 35 Whelen which kicks worse than the usual magnum suspects.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

ZeroJunk, I've owned a couple of Remington 760 pumps, one in .30/06 and one in .270. Im here to tell you that BOTH of those rifles were a couple of the HARDEST kicking rifles I have owned (short of my 470NE). I suspect it was the fit of the rifle itself and not the cartridge. The 35W, in actuality, is a puppy in a well fit rifle. I actually like the cartridge but just havn't really found the "need" for one. (In other words can't figure out a good lie to get it by the wife )